Heaven or Not?

[Kortpeel (imported)]

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Kortpeel,

From a humanistic point of view it all sounds great, but it pales in comparison to what the true heaven will be and is. You have to think outside the finite and consider the infinite. Our puny minds cannot comprehend or fathom what heaven will be like. It's similar to our understanding of what the earth is now compared to what it was before Adam & Even fell and even before the flood.

Of course, that requires a belief in creation, which for some reason is considered unreasonable.

In answer to Hash:

To be serious for this posting only, I agree with Hash that we are unable to conceive of an existence unconstrained by the physical laws of our earthly life. A world where time and mass do not exist and the second law of thermodynamics does not apply.

Jesus does not make too much of the hereafter: “better to store up treasure in heaven,” “a woman is not given in marriage in heaven,” and his words to the thief who was being crucified with him: “Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in Paradise.” (Luke 23, 43) Which, coming from Jesus himself, would have been of great comfort to the man in his wretchedness.

However I cannot take the bible as a guide to living my life. The Old Testament was written by people in the god business each with their own vested interests and axes to grind. Notice how the word of god always agreed with their own interests and beliefs? Notice too how they were strong on polygamy, slavery and forced castrations? Their record on human rights is enough to make the present day Ayatollahs look like liberals.

Likewise the New Testament was compiled by the bishops, also in the god business, at the council of Nicea when they all got together and agreed on just what Christianity was. Hence it was the bishops who defined Christianity, not Jesus himself. And the Bishops were heavily influenced by St Paul (formerly Saul) whose own record of bigotry and prejudice is not of the finest.

And as we have discussed before on this board, there is little independent evidence for the life of Jesus.

However, if you are of a religious turn of mind, I think a person can learn more about god by studying his works than by reading translations of ancient texts. Rather read books like ‘a Brief History of Time’ by Stephen Hawking. Try and get you mind around the quantum physics and cosmology. Read up on the latest developments in microbiology, DNA and stem cell possibilities. Become knowledgeable about the theory of evolution and the evidence for it before you reject it.

If you put in the effort you will have a much more sophisticated understanding of our physical existence and you will be awestruck at just how beautiful and marvelous our physical universe, including life on earth, actually is.

Note that this appreciation comes only after some effort and reading but it means real understanding based on demonstrable science. Only then, when you have an inkling of what our physical universe really is, are you entitled to attribute this wonderful creation to a divine intelligence.

To argue a case for God literally creating the universe in six days and resting on the seventh, to argue that he really created Adam from the dust of the earth and Eve from Adam’s rib is mere superstitious rubbish... That sort of thinking is on a par with believing in the Greek myths. At best it is an allegory.

And what comes after?

Who knows? I, as a committed agnostic, sometimes find myself following a chain of thought that makes sense to me. .It is reasonable to see this life on earth as a time of testing for whatever is to come after, a time of strengthening of the soul. After death there is a celestial debriefing where all your shortcoming and mistakes in life are reviewed.

“My word Adolf! You really loused up, didn’t you? I’m going to send you back for several thousand incarnations while you work your way up the food chain. Now get back down there and see if you can be a good amoeba.”

Or: “Yes, Jemima you were a good plantation slave and suffered terribly under a cruel master. That suffering has made you strong. Now we have to develop your judgment and intelligence. I think in your next life you should be a banker. Good luck and beware the sin of greed.”

Then of course the monitoring goes on even during your earthly life time. “Yes, Joe down there is doing very well. He hasn’t committed too many sins and he’s quite a decent chap. Let’s send him a curved one and see how he handles it.”

And so it goes until the soul is ready and strong enough to move on to the next stage, whatever that may be.

All that is just a hypothesis of course and I am unable to think of a way of testing it. It does account for why bad things happen – you’re being tested. It also accounts for why some guys know exactly what to do in apparently unique circumstances. They’ve been around a time or two already.

Or then again perhaps it really is extinction. After you’ve taken your last breath the neurons in your brain start to die and you walk into the white light of merciful oblivion. It does seem a shame that a whole lifetime of learning and experience should be wasted but nature is extravagant like that. How many sperm cells have you personally spent without a moment’s thought for the waste?

The point is we do not know either way. And that is true even if you think you know. The one thing I do believe is that if there is a God, we move closer to him by understanding his works, not by studying old texts.

Kortpeel

[moi621 (imported)]

Being agnostic is fine until you are "drafted" into believing via spiritual experiences. Some things I know with out ever remembering learning can be tied to coincidence, rationally explained away.

But, when you have that big WHAM BANG POW message experience, unbidden, it becomes difficult to rationally refute the existence of a place that is not involved with physics, atoms, etc.

Jung called it the collective unconscious .

As for me, I am a 10 on a scale of 10 believer that there is a reason to be a "good person" and there is a universe beyond our fully knowing. The Bible and Hay-Seuss have nothing to do with my perception.

My skills relate only to health and medicine of others. It never tells me anything else except once, 4 nights of dreams about a friend's tragedy.

That was my WHAM-BANG-POW event. Can't get it to tell me what investments to make, only health issues.

Let me emphasize I never sought these messages, they come uninvited.

Be Good

[Arab Nights (imported)]

I was raised in one of those First Selfrighteous Churches of a rural area and it drove me to being agnostic for years. During that time, I was young and did not pay too much attention to the odd event like my brother waking up in the middle of the night saying somebody was in trouble exactly when I was on top of a tall structure in a distant land as a 7.5 quake hit. Years later I got a dog as a puppy and we were constant companions. I have the type of work where we spent most days out together and she slept with me wherever we were. After ten years I was in New York on vacation and began to get a unease at night which got stronger each night and after three nights I knew that death was a black hole of despair. I flew back home. Two six packs could not kill the feeling. After two days, my dog up and died. I have never had the feeling again.

I am left with the belief that there is a connection among us. You will never see it if you avoid relationships or go thru life pigheaded. But if you do have people and animals in your life, it will occassionally be revealed that something is going on which neither I nor my original First Self Righteous Church understand.

For me also, that came uninvited.

[Paolo]

If you've not seen the movie "What Dreams May Come," with Robin Williams and Cuba Gooding Jr., rent it. I prefer to think of the "paradise" that Christ mentioned as being something like that.

[moi621 (imported)]

Sorry Paulo, "What Dreams May Come" was a cute fantasy, maybe,

but in no way touched my "spiritual sense" .

Thank You Arabian Nights for sharing.

Having experienced the WHAM-BANG-POW, unsought,

I guess you are a 10 on a scale of 10 believer in a non material

place, also (atheist = 1) . Or do you assign it to something that can

be explained, like brain waves ?

[Arab Nights (imported)]

Or do you assign it to something that can

be explained, like brain waves ?

I work in a science, so my first reaction is always to raise my eyebrow at that kind of stuff. I now am honestly perplexed by the whole thing. It becomes like trying to understand physics on the atomic level where it has been observed that atoms disappear, reappear and are in two places at the same time. While I really wish I could answer your question, I am far too simple a human being to do so.

One interesting thing to ponder is - what does the lack of such an experience in another person's life prove or disprove? I happen to really like many (but not all) dogs. Dogs live 10-15 years. Experiencing their death is a built-in feature of having a dog. If I had not liked dogs, I would not have had that experience and I would think something totally different.

There are other smaller aspects to the whole thing which I will not bore everybody with, but which if I halfway believe them then I start to accept that life will work out. My wife has even made a comment that I have been a lot cooler during this recession than past ones. That at times very painful change began

[moi621 (imported)]

I work in a science, so my first reaction is always to raise my eyebrow at that kind of stuff. I now am honestly perplexed by the whole thing. It becomes like trying to understand physics on the atomic level where it has been observed that atoms disappear, reappear and are in two places at the same time. While I really wish I could answer your question, I am far too simple a human being to do so.

One interesting thing to ponder is - what does the lack of such an experience in another person's life prove or disprove? I happen to really like many (but not all) dogs. Dogs live 10-15 years. Experiencing their death is a built-in feature of having a dog. If I had not liked dogs, I would not have had that experience and I would think something totally different.

There are other smaller aspects to the whole thing which I will not bore everybody with, but which if I halfway believe them then I start to accept that life will work out. My wife has even made a comment that I have been a lot cooler during this recession than past ones. That at times very painful change began

When I had my WHAM-BANG-POW experience, I wanted answers.

The Christians comforted me that it was the Devil's work.

The Orthodox/Chabad Rabbi said I have a role to play with the person I had the experience about. I went to a crystal meditation group and the like. But, the best comfort came from a student of Carl Jung and this book he recommended. The Tao of Psychology Synchronicity and the Self

by Jean Sinoda Bolen, M.D. (a Jungian Psychiatrist). ISBN 0-06-250081-3

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/asin/ ... eashibolmd

It is only about 103 pages. Easier to read then Jung.

Finally, let me say - "it" cannot be understood per atoms and molecules and energy, physics or any structure we conceive. "It" is more similar to the Jewish and Muslim approach that "it" is of such ( ? ) that it is beyond our conception and we should not attempt any image of "it".

If anyone checks out that book, please PM me and let me know what you thought of it. Viva Jung

[sag111 (imported)]

The best experiance I have is calling on Christ and waiting for my answer.He always gives me the answer I need it may not be the one I want but his answer is always the right one.When you get the peace and answers from Gods holy spiret you will know what I mean.I say read the old testment because this was written to show how God worked in his people to bring the savior.The new testement was written to show how he died for us and to tell of his comming back to this earth he has made for us but we are distroying.He said in Mathew he will come again to judje the people of this wicked world.Yes we are all wicked but all he has asked us to do is beleave in him and we will be with him in heaven just as the thief on the cross was saved by his faith.I hope and pray everyone in here will be with me in heaven one day and I do beleave that day is close.Just read the old testment and the new and you will see how God has discribed these last days as for me I can not wait to be with him.When I go out at night and look up into the heavens I cry out to him to come quickly as this earth is getting more wicked every day.May God be with everyone in here and yes may God bless you one and all

[bobover3 (imported)]

Not only do I doubt the reality of heaven, I doubt the reality of reality. Does anyone know who and what the human race is? Do we have a purpose or meaning? What about the earth, or the physical universe? Does anyone know what's going on here?

We live our lives with our own invented definitions. The entire framework of language and ideas that constitutes our world is a cultural construct. We're just whistling in the dark, hoping the boogy-man isn't under the bed.

Heaven is a comfy, cozy idea. People believe it because they so very much want to, even need to. But wanting something doesn't make it so. People can't imagine themselves not existing, but they didn't exist before they were conceived, and the universe was undisturbed. I expect to go back where I came from. Dust to dust. My joys will end, but so will my sorrows.

[Jean Op den Kamp (imported)]

Do we have a purpose or meaning? What about the earth, or the physical universe? Does anyone know what's going on here?

Yes I know. But that only brings the next question.....

Why does HE exist. What is the meaning / purpose of us keeping him alive with a timefeeling..........what is going on OUT THERE

For the moment I have the feeling, that the answers I got are really something to deal with, but they are surely not the end of finding out.

I have no idea what will come, only I love him and I trust him....