Are you sexually inappropriate?!

[dingbat (imported)]

I really couldn't think of a properly descriptive title for this because I'm all out of creativity this morning

I really need some input here. I have come across a problem time and time again and I really don't quite know what to do about it. I wondered if anyone had had similar experience/s?

I've been told, on numerous occasions, that I flirt with people. Male, female, it doesn't matter, both have said I do it unashamedly. The problem is that I'm not aware that I'm doing it and, if I AM, then there's no sexual element to it, it's just who I am and part of my personality. From my experience of being told this, I now know that I flirt with males and females equally. This makes women feel uncomfortable (because they view me as female) and men feel that they're in with a chance! I then get VERY surprised when people follow it up. For example, I've had experiences where people have said to me 'oh, come on, you've been flirting with me for months, you must have known you were doing it?', er, no!

From my own agendered point of view (sorry to keep using that word but it seems to sum up my situation best), I really don't view people in a sexual way (or, at least, not in a conventional sexual way) but, on the other hand, I do like some people more than others (but I'd see that as just a personal preference, not as some sort of sexual come on).

I'm not talking about being crude or saying obviously sexual things, I'm just talking about the way I respond and react to people. From my point of view, because I make very little distinction between the biological sexes, I react to everyone in much the same way. It never even occurs to me that I might be saying things which could be construed in a sexual way (genuinely, it doesn't occur to me until it's too late!) I joke with people, that's me, I can't help it, I have a fairly black sense of humour and I'm fairly open-minded which does, sometimes, lead me to say things which other people reel at (THAT much I AM aware of!)

But this is something else. Are there any other people out there who, like me, are agendered (third gendered, ungendered, mixed gendered - whichever term you wish to use) who find it difficult relating to the binary world without getting into difficulties?

It's not only words, actions can do it too. I like hugging people, that's often miscontrued as well.

Am I alone here?

[tugon (imported)]

As a eunuch attracted to men I have problems with women. I have had several women, because I am a good listener and empathetic, think that I am interested in ways that I am not. I have one friend that I mentioned this issue to and she said it was because I am kind and I make people feel important. I do not know if you are doing anything inappropriate or not but sometimes when you pay someone more attention than they are used to they build it up to be more than it is in their mind. It may not be you but their own needs and hopes that are creating the confusion.

[dingbat (imported)]

Yes Tugon, I think perhaps this is part of my problem too. As I said in the OP, the title of the thread wasn't the best thought out, sorry!

I certainly wasn't talking about inappropriate touching or any such thing, just really about the way I verbally react to people which tends to be fairly open and can, perhaps, imply that I'm interested in them for some other reason than just because I quite enjoy listening to other people. I rarely do anything with an ulterior motive, I'm quite upfront in the way I react to people and perhaps that causes some of the problem too.

With hugs, I'm careful as I'm perfectly well aware that some people just don't like to be hugged! That's not too difficult to work out and I certainly wouldn't go around hugging someone who didn't want to be hugged but when I DO give hugs, to people who are ok with that, I don't really mean anything by them other than as a friendship/supportive type of thing (I'm talking about hugs with friends here, not hugs with partner/s).

I think I'm going through a bit of a personal insecurity thing right now which is leading me to assume that it's definitely my fault if people read stuff into my reactions which isn't there but, on further reflection, perhaps, as you say, it has more to do with their expectations than my reactions.

Hmm, I shall think about this some more during the evening but thanks for that response Tugon.

[jemagirl (imported)]

Hi Dingbat,

I've encountered this situation from time to time though not quite in the way you describe. I had a boyfriend who felt I was flirting with every one. I would insist that it wasn't happening but he kept on with the accusations until he had me convinced. He would even provide witnesses and every thing. Eventually we broke up, which solved the problem - at least for me.

Now in my case I think it's easy to see that it was my ex-boyfriend's jealousy that was driving the problem, since it went away when we broke up. However I think had he been with some one less social he his jealousy would not have expressed itself in that way.

I'm guessing you are a fairly social, easy going type of person. As such your body language would reflect that unless you were consciously masking your feelings. Like my ex-boyfriend many people read friendliness as flirting even when it is not the case. I don't want to judge them, but you might want to take a look and see how they interact with others. Some people are only smiles and warmth with people they are attracted to sexually, and to the rest they are dead.

The bottom line as I see it is that you are a vibrant person living in a would that is more than a bit messed up at the moment. You could try to conform as I tried for my ex, but I think you would find as I did that it is very exhausting and not worth the effort.

"

But this is something else. Are there any other people out there who, like me, are agendered (third gendered, ungendered, mixed gendered - whichever term you wish to use) who find it difficult relating to the binary world without getting into difficulties?

"

Yes my body is fully male unfortunately

but my gender doe not fir in the F box or the M box. Though I am closer to female. So I some times identify as intergendered, but often I will just say transgendered m2f for the sake of simplicity.

Jema

[kristoff]

Yes Tugon, I think perhaps this is part of my problem too. As I said in the OP, the title of the thread wasn't the best thought out, sorry!

I certainly wasn't talking about inappropriate touching or any such thing, just really about the way I verbally react to people which tends to be fairly open and can, perhaps, imply that I'm interested in them for some other reason than just because I quite enjoy listening to other people. I rarely do anything with an ulterior motive, I'm quite upfront in the way I react to people and perhaps that causes some of the problem too.

With hugs, I'm careful as I'm perfectly well aware that some people just don't like to be hugged! That's not too difficult to work out and I certainly wouldn't go around hugging someone who didn't want to be hugged but when I DO give hugs, to people who are ok with that, I don't really mean anything by them other than as a friendship/supportive type of thing (I'm talking about hugs with friends here, not hugs with partner/s).

I think I'm going through a bit of a personal insecurity thing right now which is leading me to assume that it's definitely my fault if people read stuff into my reactions which isn't there but, on further reflection, perhaps, as you say, it has more to do with their expectations than my reactions.

Hmm, I shall think about this some more during the evening but thanks for that response Tugon.

Perhaps get a large pin-on button made for your Jacket or Shirt or whichever. About 3" in Diameter. Let it say: "The Mad Hugger" or something similar. Make a bit of a reputation of it, speak up on it. It will disarm most criticism and fear rather quickly.

There is some individual in the US who does that all the time. In fact he has made something of a career as an "inspirational" speaker on the topic of hugs and closeness, etc.... Perhaps he's still around? Cant recall his name either...

[devi (imported)]

How about walking around in a thong. On the rear (wide waist band) it would say "tiny hiney" and on the front it would say "teenie weenie". Well, OK not at all a good idea except maybe at the hot springs but how about a T-shirt that says "Sir Richard Lesley Hannibals --Please no nicknames". It would get a giggle or two from the girls. But getting serious I also have had problems with people who don't know how to take me. As a male in mixed company I will always get accused of flirting with the girls when in fact I am only making friends (on an asexual level) and of course always willing to have some kind of fun but I really never feel good about getting serious with someone (claustrophobic) and in fact any girl who is looking for a "real man" becomes horrified if I forget and start singing soprano in the shower (especially after having not given them all that much on a maasculine level beforehand. But most women sense this about me (lack of pheromones?) if I go out anyway. And of course I never bother to pick up anybody anyway since it's too much of a hassle for me. (And if I'm around drinking, --I can't since I turn red from alcohol and after two my stomach will turn on me with a vengeance). As far as men is concerned I just don't like being hit upon in case they identify me as femenine which does happen on occasion perhaps because I do tend to smile a lot, am young looking, never loud like and of course they are drunk. Sometimes however I do like to dress up as a girl (and I do pass ) but only to go shopping or to got to church and sing (not that I'm into church). But I will never go into a bar (straight or otherwise) as a female since this could be asking for too much trouble. I did that once before. Oh yes, I generally don't get along with men as friends so I stay away but however probably most of my friends are male at this point. And of course who the hell needs to have sex in the first anyhow? Too many bothers. :-\

[thefraj (imported)]

Dingbat, thank you for posting this. I honestly thought I was alone with this. I can absolutely relate to almost every word you are saying. I find myself 'flirting' with both genders too, and not deliberately, or - at least - not a decision that was made conciously. I qualify 'flirting' with quotes because what I refer to is the banter and attention. Cuddles and affection. There is never a minute that I imagine this to be a precursor to having sex with the flirtee. Maybe this is what makes me different? Do people flirt with someone they never intend to have sex with?

I once met a guy in a bar a few months ago who spent time flirting. He suggested we go to another - noisier - club together. We left the bar together, and - down an ally - he began kissing and holding me, which was really wonderful. Then it was obvious he wanted something more. I actually became a little frightened because I realized how out of my depth I was. Long story short - I refused - he became very frustrated and gave me a bit of a beating before fleeing. I was okay, more emotionally wounded than anything. Feeling more outcast from humanity than ever.

In fact, four days ago we had a houseparty, which included a friend-of-a-friend who was so very gay. He was such good company, exciting and interesting to be around. He (like most people in my small town now!) knew about me. A minor celebrity - or a freaky side show? History has not yet made up it's mind! And he was convinced (like many other people I meet!) that - from my 'flirtatious' body language - that I was gay. But simply had issues dealing with it. I was excited and enjoying the party, with the alcohol catalysing this whole reaction. He flirted outrageously (both of us - secretly - knowing this was just a test!), and of course I found myself playing along. He deliberately started kissing and holding me and was absolutely convinced I was gay.

As the evening wore on - and it's participants on stage grew drunker and more intimate - he became convinced I was NOT gay, but a woman trapped in a mans body. He spent the rest of the drunken evening making and re-making this assertion.

I know that I do not want to be accepted as female. Though I like it when someone identifies me as different. And I identify very strongly with Dingbats claims that I am probably simply ungendered. Or probably - ever-so-on-the-masculine-side of being ungendered.

It's strange how others behave as mirrors in our life.

[dingbat (imported)]

Hi TheFraj,

Actually, you've put that far more eloquently than I did, I agree with everything you wrote, that's more or less exactly what I was getting at.

The situation you found yourself in at a party mirrors a situation I was once in with a friend. He was convinced that I was, in reality, MTF t/g (don't even go there to try to work that out, he was convinced, don't know why or how!) pretending to be female, pretending to be male, pretending something ... not sure what really! It got so annoying that I ended up having quite an argument with him about it. Like your acquaintance, he felt obliged to inform everyone of his opinion about me. It was very embarrassing and quite awkward.

It made me realise how little understanding most people have of our situation. He needed to fit me in to some kind of category which he could understand and his categories really only included people who were actively sexual in some way, either male or female.

My body language is probably very similar to yours but, like you, I never mean anything by it.

The best way I've found to describe it to people is to say that I often feel as though I'm in a room where everyone else is speaking French and I'm speaking English. I understand parts of what they say, but much of it is alien to me and so I just keep on speaking English in the hope that someone will understand. Not sure if that analogy makes sense to others or not, but it does to me!