Was Einstein Wrong?
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radar6969 (imported)
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Riverwind (imported)
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Re: Was Einstein Wrong?
True but you did not make as much either, one thing is for sure, my father lived well on his retirement, I just scrape by and I made hundreds of times more money then he did.
River
River
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Slammr (imported)
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Re: Was Einstein Wrong?
Back on topic:
Physicists explain how neutrino beat Einstein The day after news broke of a possible revolution in physics — particles moving faster than light, violating Albert Einstein's ultimate speed limit — a scientist leading the European experiment explained it to a standing-room-only crowd.
By Brian Vastag (http://search.nwsource.com/search?searc ... line=Brian Vastag)
The Washington Post
Physicists Dario Auterio, left, and Antonio Ereditato explained Friday how the neutrino results were arrived at.
In science, revolutions take time.
And so, the day after news broke of a possible revolution in physics — particles moving faster than light, violating Albert Einstein's ultimate speed limit — a scientist leading the European experiment that made the discovery explained it to a standing-room-only crowd at the European Organization for Nuclear Research, or CERN, the giant particle accelerator outside Geneva, Switzerland, that straddles the Swiss-French border.
The physicist, Dario Auterio, made no sweeping claims.
He and his team did not try to explain what the results might mean for the laws of physics, let alone the broader world. After two hours of technical talk, he said: "Therefore we present to you today this discrepancy, this anomaly."
There's a long history of experimental results that at first seem to contradict relativity, only later to be found to fit neatly with the theory Einstein loved for its simplicity and elegance.
"It's dangerous to lay odds against Einstein," said Rob Plunkett, a physicist at the Fermilab near Chicago who has tried similar speed-of-light experiments and will try to test the new findings.
Harvard University science historian Peter Galison said Einstein's relativity theories have been challenged and "pushed on as hard as any theory in the history of physical sciences ever" and they have survived.
The elegance of Einstein's theory and its proven track record are why physicists greeted the findings with caution and skepticism.
The team Friday explained how it arrived at its results. From 2009 through 2011, the massive OPERA detector buried in a mountain in Gran Sasso, Italy, recorded particles called neutrinos generated at CERN arriving a tad too soon, faster than light can move in a vacuum. If the finding is confirmed, it would throw more than a century of physics into chaos.
Clocking the neutrinos' speed requires knowing two things: the distance of the journey and how long it took. Auterio detailed the extraordinary lengths his team took to make those two measurements. "We spent six months in various cross-checks," he said of the team of 160 physicists from 11 countries collaborating on the OPERA experiment, which is funded by the French and Italian governments.
Starting with GPS measurements and then upgrading the readings by sophisticated means, they measured the distance traveled — 454 miles — to within 8 inches. They factored in the rotation of the Earth, which moves ever so slightly in the flash it takes neutrinos to zoom to the detector. They even stopped traffic in a tunnel running through Gran Sasso mountain to calibrate their instruments.
And when the scientists fired the beam of neutrinos underground from Geneva to Italy, they found it traveled 60 nanoseconds faster than light, 186,282 miles per second.
An audience member asked whether the team accounted for the tugging of the moon on the Earth.
"We took data continuously over three years, so this movement should average out," Auterio said.
His explanations satisfied prominent spectators.
"I want to congratulate you on a beautiful experiment," said Samuel C.C. Ting, the Nobel Prize-winning particle physicist from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology.
About 15,000 viewers tuned into a webcast of the seminar, a huge audience for such a technical talk.
Plunkett, the Fermilab physicist, said: "There's no question this is a result." Translation: The finding holds up to initial scrutiny.
Still, some yet-unknown error could invalidate the results. "This is one of those 'devil in the details' things," Plunkett said.
If neutrinos do travel a smidgen faster than light, it might mean a rewrite, rather than a scrapping, of Einstein's theories, said theoretical physicist Matt Strassler of Rutgers University.
"All the great revolutions in science start with an unexpected discrepancy that wouldn't go away," Strassler said.
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/n ... olo24.html
Physicists explain how neutrino beat Einstein The day after news broke of a possible revolution in physics — particles moving faster than light, violating Albert Einstein's ultimate speed limit — a scientist leading the European experiment explained it to a standing-room-only crowd.
By Brian Vastag (http://search.nwsource.com/search?searc ... line=Brian Vastag)
The Washington Post
Physicists Dario Auterio, left, and Antonio Ereditato explained Friday how the neutrino results were arrived at.
In science, revolutions take time.
And so, the day after news broke of a possible revolution in physics — particles moving faster than light, violating Albert Einstein's ultimate speed limit — a scientist leading the European experiment that made the discovery explained it to a standing-room-only crowd at the European Organization for Nuclear Research, or CERN, the giant particle accelerator outside Geneva, Switzerland, that straddles the Swiss-French border.
The physicist, Dario Auterio, made no sweeping claims.
He and his team did not try to explain what the results might mean for the laws of physics, let alone the broader world. After two hours of technical talk, he said: "Therefore we present to you today this discrepancy, this anomaly."
There's a long history of experimental results that at first seem to contradict relativity, only later to be found to fit neatly with the theory Einstein loved for its simplicity and elegance.
"It's dangerous to lay odds against Einstein," said Rob Plunkett, a physicist at the Fermilab near Chicago who has tried similar speed-of-light experiments and will try to test the new findings.
Harvard University science historian Peter Galison said Einstein's relativity theories have been challenged and "pushed on as hard as any theory in the history of physical sciences ever" and they have survived.
The elegance of Einstein's theory and its proven track record are why physicists greeted the findings with caution and skepticism.
The team Friday explained how it arrived at its results. From 2009 through 2011, the massive OPERA detector buried in a mountain in Gran Sasso, Italy, recorded particles called neutrinos generated at CERN arriving a tad too soon, faster than light can move in a vacuum. If the finding is confirmed, it would throw more than a century of physics into chaos.
Clocking the neutrinos' speed requires knowing two things: the distance of the journey and how long it took. Auterio detailed the extraordinary lengths his team took to make those two measurements. "We spent six months in various cross-checks," he said of the team of 160 physicists from 11 countries collaborating on the OPERA experiment, which is funded by the French and Italian governments.
Starting with GPS measurements and then upgrading the readings by sophisticated means, they measured the distance traveled — 454 miles — to within 8 inches. They factored in the rotation of the Earth, which moves ever so slightly in the flash it takes neutrinos to zoom to the detector. They even stopped traffic in a tunnel running through Gran Sasso mountain to calibrate their instruments.
And when the scientists fired the beam of neutrinos underground from Geneva to Italy, they found it traveled 60 nanoseconds faster than light, 186,282 miles per second.
An audience member asked whether the team accounted for the tugging of the moon on the Earth.
"We took data continuously over three years, so this movement should average out," Auterio said.
His explanations satisfied prominent spectators.
"I want to congratulate you on a beautiful experiment," said Samuel C.C. Ting, the Nobel Prize-winning particle physicist from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology.
About 15,000 viewers tuned into a webcast of the seminar, a huge audience for such a technical talk.
Plunkett, the Fermilab physicist, said: "There's no question this is a result." Translation: The finding holds up to initial scrutiny.
Still, some yet-unknown error could invalidate the results. "This is one of those 'devil in the details' things," Plunkett said.
If neutrinos do travel a smidgen faster than light, it might mean a rewrite, rather than a scrapping, of Einstein's theories, said theoretical physicist Matt Strassler of Rutgers University.
"All the great revolutions in science start with an unexpected discrepancy that wouldn't go away," Strassler said.
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/n ... olo24.html
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Riverwind (imported)
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Re: Was Einstein Wrong?
Re: Was Einstein Wrong? NO.
In dealing with science one discovery is piled on another and so on, sometimes its because of that first discovery that that the second one happens that disproves the first. This is OK and I think Einstein would be the first to agree, he was a smart man in many ways.
River
In dealing with science one discovery is piled on another and so on, sometimes its because of that first discovery that that the second one happens that disproves the first. This is OK and I think Einstein would be the first to agree, he was a smart man in many ways.
River
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Slammr (imported)
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Re: Was Einstein Wrong?
Einstein was also very stubborn. He didn't like Quantum Mechanics. He spent years arguing against certain principals of it with Bor, who was as eminent in Quantum theory as he was in the theory of Relativity. Bor was always proved right and Einstein was proved wrong when it came to Quantum Mechanics.
It could very well be that there's an error in this experiment that they haven't found, and it will need collaborating, but if it's true that neutrinos move faster than the speed of light, Einstein's theory of relativity will have to be re-written. This is a big deal for scientists.
It could very well be that there's an error in this experiment that they haven't found, and it will need collaborating, but if it's true that neutrinos move faster than the speed of light, Einstein's theory of relativity will have to be re-written. This is a big deal for scientists.
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moi621 (imported)
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Re: Was Einstein Wrong?
Or, 
What if at supra luminous speeds , beyond the speed of light -
neutrinos become void of mass, explaining the earlier belief neutrinos were without mass.
"They" may not be able to tell me where it is when, but they should be able to tell me how much it is, when.
Moi
BTW - How many Higgs Bosons does it take to create a neutrino?
What if at supra luminous speeds , beyond the speed of light -
neutrinos become void of mass, explaining the earlier belief neutrinos were without mass.
"They" may not be able to tell me where it is when, but they should be able to tell me how much it is, when.
Moi
BTW - How many Higgs Bosons does it take to create a neutrino?
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colin (imported)
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Re: Was Einstein Wrong?
Slammr (imported) wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2011 7:43 pm It could very well be that there's an error in this experiment that they haven't found, and it will need collaborating, but if it's true that neutrinos move faster than the speed of light, Einstein's theory of relativity will have to be re-written. This is a big deal for scientists.
Since you started the post about 'lose/loose' I could not let the opportunity pass to point out that the word in this context should be 'corroborating'. The team of scientists collaborated on their experiment they now need the results corroborated.
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Riverwind (imported)
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Re: Was Einstein Wrong?
It was close enough for this board so its not a problem, if this were a lit guild then maybe but spelling or grammar has never been a requirement here to post as long as the message is understood for the most part, even from Moi.
River
River
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Slammr (imported)
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Re: Was Einstein Wrong?
colin (imported) wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2011 11:32 pm Since you started the post about 'lose/loose' I could not let the opportunity pass to point out that the word in this context should be 'corroborating'. The team of scientists collaborated on their experiment they now need the results corroborated.
You're right, of course. My bad. Please continue to point any any such mistakes I make.
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Slammr (imported)
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Re: Was Einstein Wrong?
moi621 (imported) wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2011 10:27 pm Or,
What if at supra luminous speeds , beyond the speed of light -
neutrinos become void of mass, explaining the earlier belief neutrinos were without mass.
"They" may not be able to tell me where it is when, but they should be able to tell me how much it is, when.
Moi
BTW - How many Higgs Bosons does it take to create a neutrino?
The problem there is that according to the law of relativity, if neutrinos have mass, by the time they reach the speed of light they have INFINITE mass.
If the theory of relativity is correct, TIME can't be separated from SPACE. If you were on a space ship flying to a star 30 light years away from Earth and you were flying close to the speed of light, it would take you more than 30 years to get there from the perspective of someone back on Earth, but depending how close to the speed of light you were flying, it might only take you a week in your time frame to get there. You've shortened the time as well as the distance to that star by flying close to the speed of light. If you could go the speed of light, you would have reduced Space and Time to zero, and you would effectively be everywhere in the Universe at once. Of course, that isn't possible, because your mass is now infinite and you, like Space, have a zero dimension in length.
At first glance, we might say, "What does it matter if a neutrino moves faster than the speed of light," but it is a big deal. If a neutrino has mass, according to the theory of relativity, it's impossible for it to move faster than the speed of light. If it does, that presents real problems for the theory of relativity. That doesn't mean we can't still use relativity for many practical calculations, but it will mean we need a theory to replace it. We still use Newtonian physics for many everyday calculations, although on a grander scale, it was replaced by the theory of relativity.