Can male body thwart the feminization process?

[Kristina282 (imported)]

Hi, I am new here, 24 years old T.girl.

I was diagnosed as a transsexual three years ago and castrated previous year. And also, I am on HRT for 11 months.

So, I have one big problem, which afflict me from the beginning of my HRT, I will try to explain it elaborately: When I increase the dose of estrogen to normal female range or higher, I feel, that my body has tendency to counteract it by increasing of any kind of androgens (I dont know what kind, but possibly dihydrotestosterone or androgens from adrenal glands). If I discontinue estrogen treatment (or being at very low dosage), these androgens goes away and I feel better, but my feminization process stagnate.

If I increase estradiol doses, symptoms are followings:

- cold, tenzion or unspecified pressure feelings in the scrotal area and in the genital, and/or behind genital

- genital becomes course and have darker pigmentation (if I discontinue estrogen treatment, it turn back almost into pre-pubertal size - small and without pigmentation)

- sometimes efflux of the clear, viscous liquid from genital can arise

- emotionally, I feel worse, like as I am loosing my feminity, sometimes strong peevishness

- occassionally, morning erections of lower intensity can be triggered (which are absolutely not acceptable for me and tends to throw me into severe depression), but after discontinuing estrogen, they practically not exist.

I have read on this forum a topic about possible metabolization a part of estrogen into testosterone, but members of that discussion wrote, that is a myth! And I also think, that testosterone alone do not do this, because my serum levels are very low (0,18 ng/ml = 0,625 nmol/l). But DHT or other adrenal androgens cannot be measured by laboratory testing.

I told this to my endocrinologist and she said me, that it is possible that male body have an effort to defend against estrogens, possibly by counteracting them by androgens, which acquires from metabolization from the part of given exogenous estrogens. In the healthly female body (XX), this mechanism practically not exist. But she dont know any more about this (caused possibly by genes?) and she also dont know, how to medicate it! She told me, that after a few years (2-5 years), my body could adjust to the estrogen treatment and stop doing this, but everybody is different and I have no guarantees, that it really will be as she said.

I tried a lot of medications in effort to dispose this "syndrome", and here are my findings:

1- only higher doses of Androcur Depot (injectable cyproterone acetate) are responsible to totally stop this "estrogen dependent virilization", spironolactone or finasteride or combinations completely failed

2- the strongest symptoms comes after bio-identical estrogen treatment, ethinylestradiol also cause this symptoms, but with lower intensity

3- except Androcur, symptoms can be also partially blocked by norgestimate administration, containing for example in contraceptive pills Cilest at doses 250mcg. Adding this progestin into HRT moderate virilisation symptoms, but mostly not totally diminish them

4- discontinuing HRT always cause complete reduction of androgens.

So, my general questions are:

- Have you anybody ever heard anything about this problem?

- How is the mechanism of "defending" (male) body against estrogen treatment and how can I force my body to stop doing this? (I cant take Androcur Depot of the rest of my life because of its hepatotoxicity).

- Is possible, that switching from estradiol to Premarin can help me? Note: I have read on Melanie Anne Phillips pages, that male body can not distinguish conjugated estrogens as they are "estrogens", because CEE are horse, not bio-identical (it means that CEE are "invisible" for the body), so the body can not counteract them. But I have no acess to Premarin, because in our country it is not distributing now, so I can not confirm this hypothesis...

I am on serious trouble with this - partly feminized, but my subsequent feminization failed due to this problem. So, everyone, if you can, please help me with this, I am really afraid, that I will never be full-feminized.

Thanks.

Hugs, Kristina

PS:sorry of my horrible english.

[fhunter]

As far as I remember from reading this board, estrogen and testosterone can be converted into each other (I may be wrong, and may remember wrong).

On second thought - if it is DHT - look in the direction of finasteride (it stops conversion of testosterone into DHT

).

But DHT or other adrenal androgens cannot be measured by laboratory testing.

This is strange, the labs here, on which I looked, offered measurements of DHT levels.

PS. Welcome to the Boards and best wishes on your journey.

[ramses (imported)]

As far as I remember from reading this board, estrogen and testosterone can be converted into each other (I may be wrong, and may remember wrong).

On second thought - if it is DHT - look in the direction of finasteride (it stops conversion of testosterone into DHT).

This is strange, the labs here, on which I looked, offered measurements of DHT levels.

PS. Welcome to the Boards and best wishes on your journey.

Excess T can convert to E and a certain amount to DHT. I havn't read anything suggesting excess E being converted to T. Since estrodiol is a metabolite of T, I doubt it would happen.

Can you be more specific about your virilization symptoms? Are you having T levels raise or just symptoms?

Have you had your thyroid checked lately? It would also be interesing to see what your FSH levels are.

[Batman (imported)]

I would recommend posting this on a TG specific site like http://bigclosetr.us/topshelf/ where you are more likely to find people in various stages of transition who might know more specifics.

[Kristina282 (imported)]

Thanks to reply.

On second thought - if it is DHT - look in the direction of finasteride (it stops conversion of testosterone into DHT

).

I tried fina

steride, as I wrote, but without any results.

Can you be more specific about your virilization symptoms? Are you having T levels raise or just symptoms?

Have you had your thyroid checked lately? It would also be

interesing to see what your FSH levels are.

I dont know, if my T levels raise. I didnt feel any symptoms of "virilisation" during blood collection to test it (this symptoms typically not carry over a day, but periodically occurs, mostly in the evening or night). It is practically impossible to take blood collection when I start feel this symptoms (I can not quickly run to my endocrinologist at for example 1:00AM ).

I am 100% sure, that these symptoms are estrogen dependent (provocated by increasing dose of sublingual estradiol up to 3 mg), but in unpredictable frequency, so it is difficult to deliberate induce them and run to the doctor. And as well, I am undergoing laboratory testing for every three months...

My laboratory results from the last testing are: LH <0,1 IU/l; FSH 0,1 IU/ml; E2 108,0 pg/ml; PRL 60,86 ng/ml; T 0,18 ng/ml; DHEAS 166 ug/dl.

But then, I have taken only 2mg of estradiol sublingually, what is too low dose which dont cause this symptoms (they usually starts on 3mg slg. or more).

[mrt (imported)]

If you are overweight I think this helps convert Estrogen to Testosterone. Or at least its the other way with men. Testosterone converting to Estrogen.

I don't think erections are a good sign for having improper E2 levels. Women get erections of their private parts just as men do. What you should do is consider this a sign that you will have normal female sexual function and work on having GRS done asap.

The changes your going through are going to be very dramatic and it might be worth while pondering with your doctor what really is abnormal and what is not. I think you might have it in your head that you should feel asexual because of your Orchiectomy (Castration) but remember your taking female hormones and you will certainly continue to have strong sexual feelings. Its just that your wiring is now female instead of male. It may feel "familiar" and lead you to think your still having "male" sex drive but I believe if you talk to people close to you and really think about it your a new side of the same coin. Female rather then Male but not so different.

Good luck!

[punkypink (imported)]

Hmm have you checked with your endocrinologist?