Well said Punkypink.

Let me restate what I said earlier then. You could go around as a woman but with as much hair as most men have, you'd be considered as ugly as all get-out with that five o'clock shadow and manly face. Most women would be on the watch out for you, be cruel to you and very rudely shield their daughters from you in certain private places and report you to the authorities (which can be upheld as a felony in the USA). I did see this happen once to somebody that had convinced themselves it wouldn't. Yes, I think medical intervention is warrented even if what you have is small enough not to even "count". Something does have to be done about this from ever happening. And as far as life being fair: LIFE IS NOT NOR EVER WILL IT EVER BE FAIR!!! Sorry! Get over it. Do what you can. You CAN circumvent the authorities which is exactly what you will HAVE to do and then in the end they would have no choice to see you as the type of person that you really are (which is not a man). But they will NOT give you any type of help whatsoever (not normally). Don't expect it. Sorry. You need to take it upon yourself and figure out a way to safely do what you need to do. Hormones are available and always have been throughout the ages. And don't lose hope since an occasional caring physician can be available here and there (wish I knew where). I think the world is changing to your benefit though. Some of us older folks have been to hell and back a few dozen times and seeing things are getting better can only wish you the best.

You're still dodging my contestation of your claim, that medical intervention is needed to pass. Assuming we put aside what should or shouldn't be the case, and say we acknowledge the current reality of society that believes women should look a certain way, your assertion is:

"

devi (imported) wrote: Sun Nov 06, 2011 7:11 am Only if you're a born-eunuch or have had some kind of medical intervention to become a eunuch(castration) can you be able to pass as a woman.

"

I say again, I pass. I am not born eunuch, I've not had any sort of medical intervention. My existance disproves the absoluteness of your claim. I think it is highly unkind or thoughtless of you to make remarks that may end up causing hungrycat to obsess over a particular route currently denied to her, when there could be other things she could do to help tide her over till the obstacles for her are removed. Then again, I'm guessing you don't cons

devi (imported) wrote: Mon Nov 07, 2011 10:29 am ider me a woman and consider me a "crossdresser with balls the s

ize of chicken eggs and penises the size of hot dogs", who knows? It won't be the first time that someone with an elitist and misplaced view of what is required for membership of womanhood on the EA, is invalidating who I am and judging a book by the cover rather than the contents.

Also, life is not fair, but I'm not sure that is justification for misandry, which I seem to sense a hint of in your earlier post? Yes you have been raped before, and I am sorry that happened. I was once misandric myself. Yet, I've had my eyes opened to just how unjustified, unfair, and downright wrong misandry is, by none other than my owner, who herself is not only twice a rape victim, but one of the rapes was a gang-rape too. She taught me that if someone who had been done so much wrong to by, to quote you "men with testosterone in their system", could still hold such an unbias, unbigoted view of men, then I simply have no reason or rhyme at all to be misandric.

Between someone who goes "life is not fair, get over it" and someone who remains a shining and upright example of fairness and justice despite being subject to gross injustices, who do you think should be the example we should aspire to? I know for sure right now hungrycat doesn't need to be made to feel more invalidated or horrible about not being able to do anything about her body like she wants to.

The doctor isn't actually wrong about people who are able to be a woman and make do without hormones. Where the doctor has been lacking in professionalism, is, having admitted that he or she "doesn'

hungrycat (imported) wrote: Thu Oct 27, 2011 10:58 am t have any experience in this area

", he or she is really not in a position to make a judgement on whether hungrycat can or cannot "make do" without hormones, or to compare her to others who do so, and to say as much to her.

Hi everyone,

Let's not get into splitting hairs here about what it means to "pass". We all know there are different kinds of "passing". Some can pass at 1000 meters, some at 100 meters, some at 10 meters, some at 2 meters, some face to face, some face to face with no clothes on. For me the issue of passing is a little different because I gave up on the idea of trying to please society. Society will only accept a perfect looking female body, voice, and mannerisms, along with no knowledge that one was every anything else. Because if anyone knows, one automatically does not pass with those people.

Here is a picture of me with Anthony Green of Circa Survive just minutes before their show here in Pomona, CA. While I am certain I don't "pass", I pass well enough that people are willing to give me the benefit of the doubt. It's like being in a play. As long as I am willing to play the part and not embarrass those who respect my gender, I basically have no problems.

For instance when a man opens a door for me I thank them in a very soft voice so as not to sound manly or threatening, since I really don't have a well developed female voice. Also, while men have "the nod", woman have the equivalent of "the smile". Early on in my coming out, I didn't realize that I was still nodding to men, sending them a very confusing signal. I also learned to give men the right of way, they are used to women getting out of their way and quite frankly they expect it.

So by remembering not only to wear a dress, makeup, high heels, hormones and surgery, but to also behave as the gender you present, one does not bring unwanted attention that brings further scrutiny. By appearing to be a woman my age by dressing and acting appropriately, I can pass at distances of 5 meters because I only get a quick glance, I am what they expect so they don't look further to even see if I have facial hair or "look manly" which by the way, many women do.

All the hormones in the world won't make one ok with themselves and it's certainly no magic bullet. Besides, in the end, what do I care if someone at the grocery store realizes I was actually born a male? I was. I am not going to live in shame as if I have done something wrong, simply because I don't feel like I have the right body. If others believe they are better than me or more entitled to be out in public than me, then they have a lot more troubles than me. Passing is about going out and feeling good about yourself. If one does that, people will respond in kind, that has been my experience so far.

Elizabeth

Exactly, the biggest and foremost thing is to be ok with oneself. If anything by trying to conform to social gender stereotypes I've found that I behaved much more awkwardly. Now that I'm happily settled into the role of a tomboy I'm far more naturally accepted as a girl. I'm not against people who feel they need hormones getting it, but it's the height of folly to think of hormones as some sort of magic potion that will suddenly make all the difference.

IF i was superficial and mean like some other trans folk, especially trans women, I could so easily point out that for many the hormones or being "born-eunuch" really aren't making that much of a difference in passing. But I won't, because really, being right in the head is the most important thing first and foremost, and part of that is to understand that while hormones can help those who need it or who also suffer from physical dysmorphia, it is important not to sell hormones to everyone like it's some magical cure-all.

Case in point? Mmm look at this thread, the ones who're psychologically secure in their identity are the ones who're not afraid to put up nice clear pictures of themselves and show themselves to the world even though they are not on hormones.

hungrycat (imported) wrote: Thu Oct 27, 2011 10:58 am This is a repost of my blog FYI...

Been back to the Doctors with all the information at hand to ask for a prescription only to be told that "I dont have any experience in this area and wont prescribe anything" and "I will take instructions only from your counselor" and "If you want to be a woman you can make do without hormones or blockers, other do so why cant you".

Then they looked at me and said "Yes" as to say well I'm not asking I'm telling.

At this point it was obvious that I would not get any further.

No name change & Real life experience varified by counselor = No hormones

No hormones = a realy f**** off transgender person who cant see how they can begin to pass as female if they dont look it...

This sucks big time and to top it off I was told if I'm feeling depressed I can have ani-depressents to make me feel better

NHS sucks at this... why dont they understand?

To say I'm depressed is an understatement... He also asked me if I'm lightly to self harm or commit suicide... maybe only after talking to people who dont seem to want to help me...

aaaarrrrrrrrr

This is the original quotation. My response is that becoming a lady CAN be done and maybe should be done. Yes, to be sure it is true that there are some of us that can easily pass as women but that's because we are in fact eunuchs either by birth (born-eunuchs) or by a medical procedure or by both. The rhetorical quotation that was given to this person was, "Y

hungrycat (imported) wrote: Thu Oct 27, 2011 10:58 am ou can make do without hormones or blockers.

Others do it so why can't you?" I am one of those so-called "others" that they talk about that CAN do without hormones or blockers. I am a eunuch. However I do recognize that most others cannot and really should not try to pass themselves off as women (not unless you want to be an ugly homey old woman that'd nobody would want around other than family and welfare before your time). And then there is the impending shame, guilt and imprisonment if you should get caught in a compromising position. One should become an obvious eunuch first. Nobody in authority will ever help you in this, however there are sympathetic medics around here and there that will, but they have to be searched after. (They will not let it be well known because of the stigma attached to performing orchiectomies). Furthermore with testicles intact most estrogen that anyone would take will simply be converted into testosterone. You may grow breasts but also the beard would be that much heavier (the dreaded bearded lady syndrome). You'd have to buy foundation for your make-up in barrel loads.

devi (imported) wrote: Mon Nov 14, 2011 9:40 am This is the original quotation. My response is that becoming a lady CAN be done and maybe should be done. Yes, to be sure it is true that there are some of us that can easily pass as women but that's because we are in fact eunuchs either by birth (born-eunuchs) or by a medical procedure or by both.

That is patently false as pointed out to you many times. I am not eunuch by birth or by

devi (imported) wrote: Mon Nov 14, 2011 9:40 am medical procedure or by both.

Are you purposely ignoring me because my existance disproves your claim?

devi (imported) wrote: Mon Nov 14, 2011 9:40 am The rhetorical quotation that was given to this person was, "Y

hungrycat (imported) wrote: Thu Oct 27, 2011 10:58 am ou can make do without hormones or blockers.

Others do it so why can't you?" I am one of those so-called "others" that the

y talk about that CAN do without hormones or blockers.

If anything, the "others" the d

devi (imported) wrote: Mon Nov 14, 2011 9:40 am octor refers to is to people like ME, not people like you.

However I do recognize that most others cannot and really should not try to pass themselves off as women (not unless you want to be an ugly homey old woman that'd nobody would want

around other than family and welfare before your time).

In any case you sound rather superficial and unenlightened. Quite at odds to what the sort of enlightened attitudes the EA is striving for.

You never hear of genetic women being prosecuted for presenting themselves as males. Women presenting themselves as women can even openly use male public restrooms and female reporters are permitted uncontrolled access to male locker rooms when men are naked without any threat of prosecution. Could this be because with their genitals they are not considered to be a threat to the male population?

Males are denied such free and open assess to female public restrooms and locker rooms. Even if they present themselves as females they are subject to prosecution as sex offenders if they are discovered. I have even heard of men being and arrested and prosecuted for wearing female swimsuits and other clothing. Why should the existance of male genitals, when being in female designated areas or just presenting oneself as female, be an automatic cause to be branded as a sex offender?

What can be done to eliminate the dual standard?

Mac (imported) wrote: Mon Nov 14, 2011 1:02 pm Why should the existance of male genitals, when being in female designated areas or just presenting oneself as female, be an automatic cause to be branded as a sex offender?

But it doesn't! That is the thing!

Maybe Devi is not aware, in the UK, hormonal treatment and SRS is NOT compulsary for a trans woman to be legally recognised as being a woman. They just need to be certified to be female gender identified, and that they wish to live and present socially as women for the rest of their lives. Those ARE the only 2 requirements. It is entirely up to the individual what they want to do with their body.

In the UK, having male genitals in female designated areas is not

Mac (imported) wrote: Mon Nov 14, 2011 1:02 pm an automatic cause to be branded as a sex offender.

That is why when Devi is rubbishing the doctor's claims that there are others who make do without as being ignorant, Devi is the actual one speaking rubbish out of ignorance, because in the UK, there ARE trans women who aren't dysmorphic or other circumstances, who are living in their identified gender roles socially without blockers, hormones, or surgery, and who are most definately not born eunuchs. I am one such person.

And we can't even say Devi is unable to re-evaluate what he or she thought to be true even in the face of new, factual evidence because he or she is old.... Jesus aka Tom on the forums is probably even older but far more receptive to new ideas when presented with new evidence, if anything Tom is one of the leading figures at the forefront of social revolution that brings society closer and closer to understanding gender and becoming unsuperficial. Devi's so-called advice for dealing with "reality" is about as useful as telling someone black to "white" up in the 50s in America to "fit in".

punkypink (imported) wrote: Mon Nov 14, 2011 1:13 pm But it doesn't! That is the thing!

Maybe Devi is not aware, in the UK, hormonal treatment and SRS is NOT compulsary for a trans woman to be legally recognised as being a woman. They just need to be certified to be female gender identified, and that they wish to live and present socially as women for the rest of their lives. Those ARE the only 2 requirements. It is entirely up to the individual what they want to do with their body.

.....................

Our society in the United States is a long way from being that accepting. Eliminating gender segregated public facilities, while providing adequate personal privacy, would go a long way in eliminating much of the sexual bias.