The publicity about steroids and similar "performance" drugs over the past few years, has made it clear that excess doses of testosterone and compounds resembling it, can produce muscle size and strength considerably greater than average. A number of records set in various sporting activities in the last three decades are considered suspect by many people knowledgeable about sports, because of the wide use of both detectable and undetectable drugs.

So it might seem that physical strength correlates with high levels of testosterone or substances that have the same effect as that hormone, and that individuals who have low testosterone levels must be weaker than average, and consequently unsuitable for tasks requiring physical strength. However, it seems striking that, when you look into the history of how eunuchs have been employed in various societies; they have worked as guards--there is even a book dealing with that subject--and have also served as soldiers. In biographies of Zheng He (Cheng Ho), he is described as having been inducted into the Chinese army after his orchiectomy, and it is inferred that taking eunuchs into the army was a common practice. Some eunuchs reached high positions in the Byzantine military, and they would presumably have been promoted from lower-ranking positions in which they were involved in combat. I can't remember where I saw it, but I think I read somewhere that, in addition to being employed as guards, eunuchs served as policemen, either in medieval Islamic societies or in Byzantium.

Both guard duty and military service involve the use of force, and it seems unlikely that individuals who were notably weaker than average, would have been employed as goards or soldiers. Police work frequently requires the use of physical force, and, prior to the invention of firearms, military combat was often hand-to-hand, and physical strength was a big advantage. Even today, when soldiers can use firearms and other weapons to attack from a distance, physical fitness is still considered a requirement for military service.

Taking this into account, my observation would be, that, in past societies in which eunuchs were more numerous than today, and were recognized as a distinct gender type, they must not have been considered substantially weaker than the average individual, despite the fact that they lacked the male glands associated with development of strength. And I wonder if removal of the testes actually brings about any substantial decrease in physical strength. Perhaps a male with average testosterone levels, doesn't have significantly greater muscle strength than a person with lower levels, even though excess doese of the hormone can bring about the development of significantly larger muscle mass. The lowering of basal metabolism which is brought about by reduction in hormone levels, probably compromises endurance and stamina to some extent, but I wonder if it actually has much effect on muscle strength.

So, the question I would ask, is whether those whose hormone levels have been reduced, either by orchiectomy or by taking testosterone-reducing drugs, have noticed any significant loss of muscle strength, and whether development of muscle mass through exercise programs is more difficult than before the reduction of hormone levels? I know that some members have commented on the message boards about greater fatigue with low hormone levels, but I don't recall much comment about muscle weakness. My impression is that those who, like sag111 with his backwoods hiking, were doing activities requiring physical exertiion prior to lowering their hormone levels; simply continued doing the same things afterward, and didn't notice much difference other than more fatigue than when their testosterone levels were higher.

Women, who have much less testosterone than men, are typically considered to have less physical strength than men, but I think this is largely because they are, on average, smaller and lighter, and they have less upper body strength, due to their narrower shoulders and less muscle mass in the chest area. According to what I have read, the difference between female performance on tests of physical strength and male performance on the same tests, for individuals of the same weight, has decreased in recent years.

I lost strength in a big way when I was on T-blockers for extended times.

And gained weight.

Having been off them for MONTHS now save for a 3 week stint to use my up last supply, my strength is coming back. I co uld barely lift an outboard motor last summer, but I'm slinging them around just fine now...I'm also working out in an aerobic method 3 times a week now...

There is a big strength difference, as a eunuch I would imagine you would have to constantly train and work out.

I think that a big factor in eunuch strength is the difference in circumstances. People today tend to have things easier. A eunuch today has to be very motivated to be able to overcome the tired feelings and get the exercise he need to eventually feel normal. Eunuchs of old, were motivated by the circumstances they found themselves in. They had to be more physically fit to survive. Eunuch slaves got their motivation form a whip. If you get an opportunity to read Wilbur Smith's, "River God", you'll get an idea of what a eunuch in Egyptian times could do. This whole Egyptian series is an excellent read.

I think many of the eunuchs back then were taken from those with "XXY" chromosomed population and many of those with the extra "X" chromosome which come from the paternal side tend to be taller and with long limbs which would turn out to be an advantage. And of course if you know how to dress right you could "bulk up" to make yourself look bigger plus a little mascara at the corners of your mouth might make you appear a little more formiddable. As far as lowering your voice, lots of women seem to be able to do that when they really want to.

devi (imported) wrote: Sun Nov 18, 2007 8:21 pm I think many of the eunuchs back then were taken from those with "XXY" chromosomed population and many of those with the extra "X" chromosome which come from the paternal side tend to be taller and with long limbs which would turn out to be an advantage. And of course if you know how to dress right you could "bulk up" to make yourself look bigger plus a little mascara at the corners of your mouth might make you appear a little more formiddable. As far as lowering your voice, lots of women seem to be able to do that when they really want to.

I would very highly doubt your supposition regarding an excessive presence of XXY persons in the world of eunuchs in ancient times. A large number were victims of victorious armies, many were captured as slaves, and in many cases, notably in China, and as I understand, in Byzantium, a significant number of eunuchs were volunteers or were volunteered by their families, notably for financial gain, security, and opportunity to advance.

A selection process in nature involving genetics producing that many XXY individuals would be tremendously out of ordinary. Relative to the long limbed features of certain eunuchs, growth patterns of eunuchs castrated prior to puberty have a distinct tendency toward over-long limbs as well as increased height, often without well-developed musculature, and presumably corresponding strength. A different result is usual with post pubertal castration, notably post pubertal growth and body stature does not go away. It's maintenance is arguably based upon the actions of the individual eunuch.

Relative to strength issues, as well as muscle mass, I suspect that much of the declines reported has a significant base in inactivity in terms of exercise and proper diet. With a maintenance level of very low testosterone, and even when not using any at all, I have seldom experienced any related fatigue, muscle mass has not declined, and I am able to fully maintain my body in reasonably good shape. The difference is that I get up and do many things, am very active, do a lot of walking, and frequently do lifting - I will not allow my body to become overwhelmed by fatigue, lethargy, and weakness.

As I have gone through cross hormonal changes I could feel myself growing weaker without having all that testosterone in my system. The job I had was very physically demanding. I could tell by the end of the day it was more of a struggle to do the same thing I've always done for years. But given that I continued working the same job I was able to maintain decent muscle tone and fitness.

Exercise is very important to those who have lower testosterone levels and less active lifestyles.

I'm probably not a good example as I've only been on Androcur for 20 days. There is some evidence that it's had a fairly major impact on my physiology, though. Including a self digital rectal 'exam' that shows my prostate is not as firm as it was. My interest in sex has dropped close to zero, although if I want to put in the effort I may still have an orgasm (I'm going to test that out later tonight, for purely scientific purposes of course) ) Truth is, I don't find looking at naked men all that interesting now (I am gay). Before Androcur, a preoccupation of mine was 'cloning' out the balls of naked men in Photoshop because I thought they looked so attractive that way. Don't really care, now. I've gone into all this so that you know, while I may not be the best example of effects of low T on physical strength, I still think I've got some insight. I've got to say my stamina is less if I don't keep to my regular exercise routine. I start to feel lethargic perhaps more readily than before Androcur. When I start to get this way, though, I now head right for the gym and work out. I feel really energized afterwards. I find I need to start out my weights routine at a slower pace than I used to but as long as I stick to reasonble rest breaks (which is what should be done anyway), I'm fine. Today, I was surprised when I was able to increase the weight on my bench press by 20 pounds with little effort. I had only been doing 60 pounds, mostly because I've been recovering from two shoulder surgeries and have had to be careful. None the less, the move to 80 lbs today is a 33% increase in weight. Since I started Androcur, I've lost 10 pounds. This was starting to concern me a bit today as I thought I might already be losing significant muscle mass. After my 'success' at the gym today, though, I don't think that's happening at all.