Ok, I can understand all of the discussion about the values associated with the content, but back to the point....

The STORY that we are discussing is a work of fiction. Erotic fiction, mind you, but CLEARLY strikes a strong note with a lot of use. I mean, just look at the discussion so far. For that alone it should be praised as a great story, and its author encouraged!

My 2 cents,

Charrett

"

C van D (imported) wrote: Mon Jan 31, 2005 2:16 am I don't cram my PhD down people's throats.

" - C van D

Do you suggest, C van D, that someone else does?

PUEROS

My dear Pueros, certainly not. This rather dim ancient historian and lecturer in classical studies prefers a low profile.

C van D

if a true scholastically untrained idiot may interject....

This is a well-behaved discussion so far that I'm delighted to read. Thanks you guys, and to those of you who offered personal anecdotes, I look up to you. I'm suprised at the forthrightness, and... balls you all display. You are making me want to further identify my feelings about this subject, as I'm afraid I made my point to simply at first, now.

The thing is, not all pedarests are created equal. So much of society sees the idea of being able to 'love' a child not your own as repulsive... as a man who loves the sounds, actions, easy-going nature and, yes, beauty of boys, I know that if my sexuality was 'outed', most of society who would hear of it would assume a) that I'm a monster and b) that I was abused, in some way, in childhood. While a) may be subjective, I know full well I had a loving, caring, 2-parent, 1sister family (and the obligatory 1.3 dogs). The societal assumption is, if you like boys, write of boys, or say ' damn... is that 10year old ever CUTE!' you will be assumed to be a monster. As has been stated here already, there is a knee-jerk hysterical response to what is, to me, simply what my body and mind react to most; the myriad wonders that is a Boy. So where does it come from? I have no idea.

I do know that I knew my prefrence at an early age. I clearly remember at age 9 and 10 being absolutely DRAWN to other boys my age and younger. Is it an accident of the maturation process that I/we simply dont grow beyond this? Or is it no more than simply another sexuality, gay, straight, bi, child-lover? Or is it simply that this period of time, in this crazy, hyper-religious, overly-conservative hoity-toity world, humans are simply suppresing out of conciousness what used to be alowed to be freely thought; Boys really are quite amazingly beautifull, but were just not alowed to think it?

What happens when society crushes out any ability for a coach to hug a player, a teacher to do the same? You get future grownups who don't hug either. And thats a shame, and many people, on reading me say that, would say "What does a PEDOPHILE know of hugs?!" Let me tell you what we know of them. They are, for me, anyway, the height of what I can do, of what I can express, of how I can show how I love someone. They are the only thing I can, if irregularly, do that is actual, real 'contact' with the human form which my mind and body react to. And yes, horror of horrors, I do know two boys that I can spend time with, always in the yard in public or with their parents. But I go away from those meetings happy. A cuddle on the couch, a hug... its all I can expect, and I love every time one of them comes to me and, by his actions, says, 'I know you like me. And I like that, and I'm relaxed enough to cuddle up.' I'm the monster your neighbors kicked out, A-1. I'm like the 'uncle' you talked of, Pueros. Am I ashamed, frighted for my soul? No. Part of my castration fantasy comes from the (imagined) freedom I woud have after being neutered to then be a closer friend to a boy. And yes, a part of it is the idea of preserving childhood in a boy, but thats fantasy... And, like any good, salary-earning, monster-among-the-lambs of society, I can tell the difference between fact and fiction.

Which is why I read the stories. Yes, I do read them also for the moral lessons, and other lessons. Many of them have alot to say about society, and the eunuch groups place in it. But I also, of course, read for a more base reason. I know you guys have said here many times that you write to make a point. But alot of the stories are also... erotic. Its an outlet. This archive offers MUCH MORE than just this erotic, sexual outlet, and for that I'm VERY glad. This thread is proof of that.

I'm gratefull for this chance to talk like this. I can't believe I'm doing it... this stuff is not something I have had much chance to talk bout, ever.

Thank you for this forum, All of you that maintain it, and participate in it.

I've not been keeping up to date with these messages and am concerned to see there has been a major spin-off in the form of the lengthy correspondence on "Castration stories about kids" which a number of members seem to find highly repugnant.

For the record may I correct one earlier correspondent's assumption about my own orientation and say that I do not prefer boys to girls. There was a time in my late teens when I thought I did (result of attending a repressive single-sex school) but I grew out of this by the time I was 21.

Though in (very) late middle age I am fortunate in having a girlfriend who is only 28. She and I thoroughly enjoy our sex sessions. A little Viagra helps.

Two episodes from school days. One was a widespread rumour that the leading treble in the choir had actually been castrated by the music director "to make him sing better".

The other was the result of that very English game, cricket. At age 12 we never wore boxes - our privates were believed to be too small to matter. One day I took a ball full in the crutch. Everything swelled up and went a horrible colour. If septicaemia had set in I should have had to lose them both.

Readers of my Simon stories will find how I have used these themes. A society in which boys are routinely neutered is shameless plagiarism from other contributors, I know.

C van D

C van D (imported) wrote: Wed Feb 16, 2005 1:54 am Readers of my Simon stories will find how I have used these themes. A society in which boys are routinely neutered is shameless plagiarism from other contributors, I know.

Not really.

When you stop and think about it, there's not much new in fiction that hasn't already been written. In fact, even before the written word, the themes of many stories were already used. It's what you do with the same old themes, and the world that you set them in, that makes a "new" story.

Compare Luke Skywalker of Star Wars to Harry Potter. Compare them to Garion from David Eddings' series. Take almost any Dickens character and do the same. You'll find that the plot is basically identical.

We have "the hero's journey", Propp's analysis, "the butler did it", the villagers take on the invading horde, etc., etc.

So don't feel too bad about ripping off the plot of another story. It's impossible NOT to.

Stefan, I'm still working on a reply to this one for you.

And CvanD, nice to see you around again?

How's Simon these days?!

I

StefanIsMe (imported) wrote: Tue Feb 01, 2005 11:41 pm f a true scholastically untrained idiot may interject....

Go right ahead, the world is full of them.

StefanIsMe (imported) wrote: Tue Feb 01, 2005 11:41 pm This is a well-behaved discussion so far that I'm delighted to read. Thanks you guys, and to those of you who offered personal anecdotes, I look up to you. I'm surprised at the forthrightness, and... balls you all display. You are making me want to further identify my feelings about this subject, as I'm afraid

now I made my point too simply at first.

That’s what we’re here for.

The thing is, not all pederasts are created equal.

Depending on your definition, which we’ve done to death in the recent past, you are correct. Are you a pedophile, a pederast, a boy-lover, or what? Define such…but don’t do so without first knowing all the facts. That’s just my opinion, based on real life experiences in childhood and adulthood. It’s unfortunate that condemnation of such people comes so swiftly.

StefanIsMe (imported) wrote: Tue Feb 01, 2005 11:41 pm So much of society sees the idea of being able to 'love' a child not your own as repulsive...

That’s because the word “love” is often confused with the word “lust”. I’ve had a hard time explaining this to several people who have questioned my relationships with various boys in my life. I have even used things like, “Well, why don’t you have the boy’s anus examined for traces of penetration or semen samples, then?” This will either shut them up, or launch a very fun firefight!

StefanIsMe (imported) wrote: Tue Feb 01, 2005 11:41 pm as a man who loves the sounds, actions, easy-going nature and, yes, beauty of boys, I know that if my sexuality was 'outed', most of society who would hear of it would assume a) that I'm a monster and b) that I was abused, in some way, in childhood. While a) may be subjective, I know full well I had a loving, caring, 2-parent, 1-sister family (and the obligatory 1.3 dogs). The societal assumption is, if you like boys, write of boys, or say ' damn... is that 10year old ever CUTE!' you will be assumed to be a monster. As has been stated here already, there is a knee-jerk hysterical response to what is, to me, simply what my body and mind react to most; the myriad wonders that is a Boy. So where does it come from? I have no idea.

Other than a stable 2-parent family, I can attest to much the same.

In your mention of the word “sexuality”, though, you bring up the old $64 Question – are boys nothing more than an object of lust? Do you have the sense to see the line? And are your interactions with boys mutually beneficial, or selfish? Objectively, we can look at this here without the condemnation that Society at large would immediately begin screaming about. It’s the knee-jerk reflex you also mention. Hopefully, this comment can foster discussion and not emotional flaming. In mentioning sexuality, you also state that you see this line, however. Most of Society probably wouldn’t see you seeing the line, though, is what I’m getting at it.

As I once told the mother of one of my boy’s friends, “Madame, were I after your son, I would have come and collected him 2 years ago.”

I do know that I knew my prefe

StefanIsMe (imported) wrote: Tue Feb 01, 2005 11:41 pm rence at an early age. I clearly remember at age 9 and 10 being absolutely DRAWN to other boys my age and younger. Is it an accident of the maturation process that I/we simply don’t grow beyond this? Or is it no more than simply another sexuality, gay, straight, bi, child-lover? Or is it simply that this period of time, in this crazy, hyper-religious, overly-conservative hoity-toity world, humans are simply suppres

sing out of consciousness what used to be al

StefanIsMe (imported) wrote: Tue Feb 01, 2005 11:41 pm lowed to be freely thought; Boys really are quite amazingly beautiful,

but were just not allowed to think it?

I have read some academic theory (painful, at best, unless you’re Jesus or Pueros!) about this subject. The ones I read, and I don’t recall the sources because I didn’t keep it, was about the urge to engage in homosexual experimentation with other boys while one is still a boy. Think mutual masturbation, etc., use your imagination

The premise of the paper was that boys who DO engage in this behavior often outgrow it and evolve into “well-adjusted heterosexuals” later in life. Those who are denied this, or get caught at it and are punished, may fixate on it and never outgrow it. While it sounds good in theory, I’m not so convinced.

As Stefan mentions, at an early age, being drawn to other boys – same age or younger – happens to some boys. I can relate to this, in that all of the other boys in my neighborhood(s) while I was growing up were younger than I was. This, after being “left behind” by the couple of older friends I had. That didn’t bother me at all. It left me as the “ring leader”, the one who knew about things, and the one who could fix things or come up with a good plan or excuse when trouble hit. One other factor may be not fitting in too well with one’s peers and seeking friendship in the younger sect, where acceptance may come easier for the older boy.

Perhaps since we now have more intense and fantastical media coverage of events, we are more aware of what goes on here and there in our Society. We are more aware, we are better informed, and our imaginations run rampant.

Take, for instance, something like The Boy Scouts. What keeps a man in that role, even after his own son is grown and out of it? What gets him into it in the first place? My own Scouting career ended at the age of 20, as an Assistant Scoutmaster, when a couple of close friends – parents of other boys in the Troop when I was growing up with them – had a long talk with me about where they perceived things were going with organizations not limited to just Scouting. And they were right. Not long after I resigned, the Witch-Hunt began. Never mind the fact that married men and even Priests were later involved in scandals, fed to us by our heightened media coverage these days. Single men of questionable sexuality have only one agenda where young boys are concerned…right? Ha!

And so, gone were the days of being the leader, of imparting knowledge and perhaps even wisdom, to the younger set. At least for me. I could go on with anecdotes and stories about some of the more “touchy” adventures that were to be had in growing up in this role, but I won’t. Suffice it to say, were some of the things that happened in our lives here made public today, I would no doubt be in prison and the boys (age irrelevant of any of them) would be in therapy or perhaps even institutionalized. None of this happened, because MY actions – guided by what I thought was right and by my love of these boys – were the right ones that proved in time to be RIGHT. But I am now another statistic of someone who bailed out, taking with him all of the good that he could have done for the benefit of Society.

OK, one story – I ran into one of these younger boys not long ago, now a grown man and married with several children. He didn’t recognize me until I spoke up and said something about a passing boy’s haircut to Auntie, whom I was out with shopping. He recognized my voice. This man is what evolved from the frightened little boy at camp whom I moved into my tent in the “adult compound” when his tentmate went home sick and he was afraid to stay by himself. This aircraft mechanic was the small 11 year old boy who learned, after crawling into MY sleeping bag in a tearful panic, that camp skunks can be hand-fed and are not a threat. And this burly, rough-sounding fine example of Rockwellian Americana used to be the short, skinny little boy that was scared to the point of hysteria during thunderstorms and had anxiety attacks when someone mentioned “shower house”. Note – this is an issue that MUST be cured, especially in humid, hot, Midwest summers at camp! I cured it. How I cured it would probably land me in jail today, but in the long run, it seems that everything turned out fine.

StefanIsMe (imported) wrote: Tue Feb 01, 2005 11:41 pm What happens when society crushes out any ability for a coach to hug a player, a teacher to do the same? You get future grownups who don't hug either. And that’s a shame, and many people, on reading me say that, would say "What does a PEDOPHILE know of hugs?!" Let me tell you what we know of them. They are, for me, anyway, the height of what I can do, of what I can express, of how I can show how I love someone. They are the only thing I can, if irregularly, do that is actual, real 'contact' with the human form which my mind and body react to. And yes, horror of horrors, I do know two boys that I can spend time with, always in the yard in public or with their parents. But I go away from those meetings happy. A cuddle on the couch, a hug... its all I can expect, and I love every time one of them comes to me and, by his actions, says, 'I know you like me. And I like that, and I'm relaxed enough to cuddle up.' I'm the monster your neighbors kicked out, A-1. I'm like the 'uncle' you talked of, Pueros. Am I ashamed, frightened for my soul? No. Part of my castration fantasy comes from the (imagined) freedom I would have after being neutered to then be a closer friend to a boy. And yes, a part of it is the idea of preserving childhood in a boy, but that’s fantasy... And, like any good, salary-earning, monster-among-the-lambs of society, I can tell the difference between fact and fiction.

We have indeed become a Society that is paranoid to one extreme or the other. And not only with children. Recently, I submitted a photo of a large crowd at a local festival to a contest. It came back stating, as stupid as this sounds, that I required over 5,000 signed model releases to use this image! No one was big enough to identify! They were out-of-depth colored shapes that were people. Period. We also had one parent of a child walk out angry at our business because our system used digital video proofing so that poses can be ordered RIGHT when they are shot. She refused to have her child’s portrait done because of the digital media used, and the fact that we keep negatives thereafter, as well as files. She objected to the sample image on the wall of a boy in only a swimsuit with a beach background and props.

Last week, thanks in part to people like her, the business closed and locked the doors.

Just this last football season, I was employed by the league to do team pictures. MY boy helped. I also did game shots of action. I won’t be doing it again, as too many parents objected to me taking pictures mainly of MY kid on the field. Their kids were in the shot, you see, and that’s wrong to do now. One happy parent who bought a shot of his kid being tackled was even screamed at by another parent of a boy in shot, in that HE had no business with a picture of HIS kid in the shot that was mainly of another boy. Society has gone mad. And I am the evil one who took the pictures, thus bringing down suspicion upon myself.

Oh well, it’s not the first time!

Speaking of the coach having physical contact with the players…yes, it’s a tricky subject. When I was in college, I read some books on the importance of touch to children – not only by parents, but the sense of touch overall – for a research paper. What we are denying now will, in the future, have a not so good outcome if what those scholars wrote about touching is true. Is it wrong for a coach to hug a player? Is anything more than a handshake or high-five wrong? But it’s a fact that if a coach even TALKS to the boys about something that can be sexually skewed, then he’s in for it. Recently, and the link is now gone, there was a story in the news about a little league coach who had “the talk” with his son and some of the boys’ friends from the team. He wound up in jail. Sad.

I’ve also been confronted with the logic of a mother that said, “Anyone who coaches is a child molester, that’s why they do it.”

Was this man a pedophile then? It seems that Society deemed his as one. And at what cost? What lesson did this teach the boys involved? That there is shame in being possession of male genitalia…that it’s wrong to talk about being male…that it’s wrong to be involved with children, and wrong to spend time with them…that every man who seems to care about them is a monster? Probably.

Sadly, this is the direction that Society is headed in.

One can only wonder how many children out there, boys or girls, will end up in a situation much like mine in childhood. Had it not been for my “adult friend”,

Paolo wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2005 12:05 pm I would not have survived childhood.

Now, relationships like this are rapidly becoming something evil that must be stopped. Was my friend – by whatever definition – dangerous to me? No. What was more damaging were the steps taken - by those who knew better - to end it.

So, is it our widespread media that make us more aware of the problems now, or the fact that we have a generation that has been/is being deprived of affection and positive attention? If affection is NOT OK then, what’s left? Violence.

Hell, you hardly ever see a child get any kind of affection in books

StefanIsMe (imported) wrote: Tue Feb 01, 2005 11:41 pm or films these days. It’s gotten that bad.

Which is why I read the stories. Yes, I do read them also for the moral lessons, and other lessons. Many of them have alot to say about society, and the eunuch groups place in it. But I also, of course, read for a more base reason. I know you guys have said here many times that you write to make a point. But a lot of the stories are also... erotic. Its an outlet. This archive offers MUCH MORE than just this erotic, sexual outlet, and for that I'm

VERY glad. This thread is proof

StefanIsMe (imported) wrote: Tue Feb 01, 2005 11:41 pm of that.

Glad we could help.

I'm grateful for this chance to talk like this. I can't believe I'm doing it... this stuff is not something I

have had much chance to talk bout, ever.

Usually not a dinner table topic, no, but one that does need to be discussed.