In Europe, I have heard of using Testosterone Undecanoate, an injectable that has a half life of three weeks. Shots could be done every two weeks and levels stay very steady. But its not approved in the USA. In the USA, they love using Cypionate, but they won't give it often enough. The half life for that stuff could almost be measured in days! In fact, 8-10 days is the number generally given for Cypionate. So, weekly injections are a must. I know of an endocrinologist who refuses to even prescribe any injectable unless they are used subcutaneously, EVERY DAY. A subcutaneous injection can be tolerated by the body if the injection sites are rotated, ie, not the same exact spot all the time, and also if the oil volume is low. But really, even just single intra-muscular shot a week will do. I have used this stuff myself and don't know how doctors can think it is OK to make men wait until the entire drug is out of the system before giving another shot. It would be like going through menopause all the time.

I don't know why they don't use the testosterone pellets in the USA. Its the same testosterone that is in Androgel, but not near the expense. They have pellets that can last two years. Just a doctor visit every, I guess, year and a half, would keep levels stable, and expenses down.

Hash (imported) wrote: Sun Mar 02, 2008 5:43 am IEunuch,

Just was wondering how the shots affect you. I'm tempted to try them because a tube of compounded "t" costs me $120. bucks. When you first get injected, does your testosterone skyrocket? Do you feel as though you can't control your sexual desires? Does it slowly level off over time and will I get to the end of the month dragging myself into the Doc's office for another shot? Hash

Personally, I've found that shots tend to work best for me, even over the gel. However, that said, you have to be careful about your dosing schedule. I would absolutely advise against going with monthly shots. I don't even want to think about what it would be like to be on 400mg once a month.

For many years I went to the doctor every other week, for an injection of 200 mg. That was ok, although I do admit there was a fair-sized peak about 3 days after the injection, followed by a decrease to below-normal levels right before the next shot. Not anywhere near as much of a rollercoaster as getting a shot once a month, but still somewhat noticeable. In the last few months though, I've switched over to giving myself injections once a week. I have to say, after an adjustment period, it's a definite improvement over biweekly injections. I'll admit, sometimes I miss the 'peak' that biweekly injections gave, but the lows definitely are not as bad as they were.

I realize that not everyone will be ok with injecting themselves, but I don't really have a problem with it at all. Once you get the hang of it the process is fairly simple and (at least for me) virtually painless. I have a box each of syringes and 1.5" 22ga needles, so I'm well equipped, am using 100mg/ml concentrations of testosterone cypionate, and alternate thighs for injection.

It'd be nice to have a higher concentration of testosterone, however as far as I know the 200mg/ml strength isn't available around here, or at least no pharmacist has been able to locate it. One big advantage for me is that I no longer have to go in every other week to see a doctor, which can be a huge pain in the ass (no pun intended.)

With the weekly shots, I don't really notice any huge peaks or valleys, no days when my drive seems out of control, and no days when it seems nonexistent. I should probably qualify that however, by stating that I've never noticed any days where my drive seems out of control since starting HRT. On the contrary, even at times when I've doubled up my dosing, my sex drive has never reached the levels it was at prior to castration.

As for costs, I realize they'll be somewhat different with me being in Canada, however a 10ml vial (good for 10 weeks) runs around $41, including dispensing fees.

The minor problem I'm facing at the moment is that I'm only fully covered if I use the approved generic. Unfortunately, it seems that the generic that's approved isn't being made at the moment, and so I must use 'name brand'. This means that I have to pay the difference, which runs about $20 a vial. Still, $20 every two months or so isn't bad.

Thats strange,. Virtually all cypionate that has ever been made is 200mg/ml. PS. A little secrete your doc may not know, the higher the concentration, the less of the hormone gets lost. For example, if one uses 100mg/wk of cypionate that is only 25mg/ml, his blood level will not be as high as someone who uses 100mg/wk of cypionate that is concentrated at 200mg/ml. Its not a dramatic difference, but every mg counts.

Another trick docs don't know, is that part of the weight is actually not hormone but the ester chain added to that hormone. And the cypionate ester weighs more than the propionate ester. So if you were on 100mg/wk of propionate, your testosterone level would be higher than if you were on 100mg/wk of cypionate.

Testman (imported) wrote: Tue Mar 04, 2008 1:48 pm Thats strange,. Virtually all cypionate that has ever been made is 200mg/ml. PS. A little secrete your doc may not know, the higher the concentration, the less of the hormone gets lost. For example, if one uses 100mg/wk of cypionate that is only 25mg/ml, his blood level will not be as high as someone who uses 100mg/wk of cypionate that is concentrated at 200mg/ml. Its not a dramatic difference, but every mg counts.

Another trick docs don't know, is that part of the weight is actually not hormone but the ester chain added to that hormone. And the cypionate ester weighs more than the propionate ester. So if you were on 100mg/wk of propionate, your testosterone level would be higher than if you were on 100mg/wk of cypionate.

I'll definitely ask about any cost difference between 100mg/ml and 200mg/ml, although it's all up to the finances. If I recall, undecanoate is actually legal and available up here, I should probably inquire as to the costs of that too. Not sure about propionate, haven't encountered that one yet, at least not in injectable form.

Propionate is injectable only. Undecanoate is usually oral, so you may want to check that. But hey, if it IS in oral form, I can show you how to make it into an injectable, where MUCH more of the testosterone gets into your system! With oral Undecanoate, only a very small percentage gets into the blood. When its injected, almost 100% gets into the blood. You may actually be able to save money this way, as you would not be waisting so much that gets lost in the stomach.

Testman (imported) wrote: Wed Mar 05, 2008 5:57 pm Propionate is injectable only. Undecanoate is usually oral, so you may want to check that. But hey, if it IS in oral form, I can show you how to make it into an injectable, where MUCH more of the testosterone gets into your system! With oral Undecanoate, only a very small percentage gets into the blood. When its injected, almost 100% gets into the blood. You may actually be able to save money this way, as you would not be waisting so much that gets lost in the stomach.

Sorry, brain fart. I've tried undecanoate (Andriol) before, in pill form. I was trying to think of a different form of injectable testosterone that I was on briefly a few years back, and must have gotten the two wires crossed. Its one of those things where I'd know the label if I saw it, however the chemical name is escaping me. Definitely wasn't cypionate though, although it was 200mg/ml strength.

BossTamsin (imported) wrote: Wed Mar 05, 2008 7:53 pm Sorry, brain fart. I've tried undecanoate (Andriol) before, in pill form. I was trying to think of a different form of injectable testosterone that I was on briefly a few years back, and must have gotten the two wires crossed. Its one of those things where I'd know the label if I saw it, however the chemical name is escaping me. Definitely wasn't cypionate though, although it was 200mg/ml strength.

Sounds like it could have been Enanthate.

Andriol comes in capsules that have oil in them. This oil can be injected (once you extract it from the capsules) but first is re-sterilized with special filters. Very easy to do. I have used injectable Undecanoate before and I liked it. Not as much sex drive as cypionate gives but increases sense of well being very well. I just basically felt good all the time.

HRt can sometimes be a pain Androgel and Testim may not work and may leave residue however a compounded Testosterone Cream or Gel would not be leaving a residue on me and gets my levels back to the studly levels they were before I was on HRT or close as I had testosterone naturally at after a chronic infection and atrophy...

It is very costly to keep everything up though, it has been quite difficult.

I'm just confirming some information given above. I used steroids through my younger years, and have many friends who still do.

There is two aspects to steroid abuse -- physical and psychological.

For the physical, the danger is primarily one of liver damage. If you're on a testosterone regimen, your doctor should be testing liver function periodically. However, the liver problem is primarily with oral testosterone. Also, it depends on other liver risk factors -- like you might want to keep your drinking moderate. For me, the main physical risk seemed to be high blood pressure -- there is a reason that steroid abusers look like they're about to pop -- which led to an enlarged heart. But that sort of thing happens with large amounts of steroids (maybe five times amount of normal range male), not with HRT levels.

For the psychological aspect, as you noticed having testosterone in your system makes you feel good -- energetic, powerful, virile, dominant, indestructible. Also, some guys are have a body dysmorphic disorder where no matter how muscular they become it is never good enough.

In the end though, there is really not that many guys I know of who have died due to direct effect of extreme steroid use. Guys like Arnold Schwarznegger and Sylvester Stallone seem to still be kicking. I knew one guy, who I actually met once, called Andreas Munzer who died from massive internal organ failure, but he used $3000 worth of steroids per month. Check out his pics on http://forum.bodybuilding.gr/attachment ... 1250747047 and you'll see that you have a long way before you'd be that level of abuser.

So, I'd just monitor liver function and blood pressure. Other than that, I think testosterone can be really beneficial at the right levels.

Interesting discussion. I'm very lucky to have an endocrinologist who works with me and cares. He got me set up on a self injection routine by testing my levels carefully until we got it right.

To the "abuse" question, I don't think there is any meaningful risk to taking testosterone prescribed by a knowledgeable physician in a way that is monitored and keeps T levels within the normal range.

This is a difficult subject to get one's arms around because the data on steroid abuse is mostly anecdotal or one-off (guys who are using a Class-A drug illegally usually don't come forth to be part of clinical tests), but the risks of abuse are not trivial.