There was a case in Germany some time ago that I read about where a sex offender had agreed to be castrated and was released on that basis after the op. He had then gone on to TRT and thereafter attacked and killed a young girl. At his trial, the mother of the girl stood up with a gun and shot him dead on the spot. I think they went through the motions of prosecuting the mother but in the end she was let off with no conviction - probably a temporary insanity defense which was regarded sympathetically by the authorities. This event and other similar events suggest that once and offender is convicted of a seriously violent sex crime against children and maybe women in general, they should be jailed with a "Never to be released" provision in their sentence. No second chances, period. Where you read second chance at a life I read a second chance to offend. A life sentence won't necessarily do it since most,sooner or later seem to find some reason to apply for parole which bleeding heart judges then seem only too willing to give them.

As far as I am concerned if I had been present in the courtroom I would have stood up and applauded

I think castration would be a help for those who request it because they want to change. If they choose castration as an early out from prison and not a genuine desire to change I do not think it will be as much a benefit. They can not unrape their victims so the time still needs to be served. We all know certain crimes have certain sentences and to commit that crime is to accept the punishment.

I was male when I was raped repeatedly and believe me in my situation it was very much about control and domination. Why else would one rape because they could find a sex partner in a more normal way. They could hire a prostitute and have sex. Instead they put a gun to your head, enjoy your fear and panic and as all your muscles tighten out of fear they tear you as they enter. They use their penis as a weapon to hurt. This folks is not sex. I hope no one else will experience that trauma. This is not femminist propoganda.

One thing you may not know is that rape changes you. Being a victim you find it hard to trust people. Intimacy becomes very difficult. There are many well documented issues that victims of rape must overcome. It is possible to learn to be happy but you are forever changed. Sex does not harm your heart, mind and soul but rape does.

I think that rape is not as much about sex/dominance/control, as it is about sexual release of the perpetrator. Some people either cannot, or don't get enough satisfaction from "mainstream" forms of sexual outlet. Instead, they are turned on by violence. Screams and terror of their victims only serves the purpose of further sexual stimuli.

Ever heard of Chikatilo, the notorious Ukranian lust murderer? Even though his libido was reportedly weaker than average, Chikatilo still had a need for an occasional sexual release. However, there was a problem.. He discovered (while raping one of his victims) that the ONLY way he could get a satisfactory orgasm, was by suffocating, stabbing and tearing his victims apart. They were typically discovered as mutilated cadavers covered with sperm. These were the sort of activities that turned Chikatilo on. He could not achieve orgasm during ordinary intercourse, and even rape wasn't enough anymore. "He ejaculated in the process of knifing the child; from then on Chikatilo was only able to achieve sexual arousal and orgasm through stabbing and slashing women and children to death. " http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrei_Chikatilo .

While on the surface it may seem that rape is about "revenge, dominance, etc.", it is in fact largely about the sexual gratification of the rapist because that's what turns these folks on in the first place. Furthermore, many of the other cited reasons for rape, ie., "need to control, humiliate, subjugate" also appears to be testosterone-dependent and intertwined with the perpetrator's (often) overwhelming sexual urges/fantasies. It comes as no surprise, then, that the overall recidivism rates are almost non-existent across ALL of the 31 (mostly European) studies which looked at volunteer surgical castration for sex offenders, including a small sub-group of violent offenders guilty of severe bodily injury and sometimes murder.

hazbalz (imported) wrote: Thu Sep 13, 2007 8:02 am where do you get the 2% recidivism number from?

Here's an excerpt from one of my earlier posts on this issue, that might be of some interest:

A total of about 31 studies on the effectivity of surgical castration in sex offenders have been carried out in Europe and the U.S. during the last 60 years.

The studies (as listed in VT Cheney's "Castration: The Advantages and the Disadvantages"): Norway (Bremer 1959), Switzerland (Cornu 1973, Kolle 1934, Wolf 1934, Lemaire 1956), Germany (Langeluddeke 1963, Bunnsmann 1940, Heim 1980, Jensch 1944, Meywerk 1943, Ohm 1960, Renner 1979, Rodenberg 1942, Schultka 1971, Wille & Beier 1989), Holland (Hartsuiker 1948, Wijffels 1954, Fischer 1960), Sweden (Kinmark 1949, Oster 1966, Lindberg 1968), U.S.A (California Assembly Repors 1952), Czechoslovakia (Zverina 1989), Denmark (Sand 1940, Sturup 1953 & 1968 & 1969 & 1972)

The results: Total number of participants: 5248 men, with an average of about 170 per study. Average recidivism rate: 2,44 % , with a maximum of 11% and a minimum of 0.0%. The largest study, by Langeluddeke in 1963, involved a total of 1036 castrated offenders with a follow-up of 20 years, with a recidivism rate of only 2.3% vs. 84.0% before castration. Furthermore, none of the recidivism rates were of a violent character (in contrast, chemical castration studies end up with a slightly higher average recidivism rate of about 10%, with a max. of about 15% to 18%, probably due to poor compliance with treatment regimen. The recidivism rates for counseling are much higher).

tugon (imported) wrote: Fri Sep 14, 2007 7:59 am I think castration would be a help for those who request it because they want to change. If they choose castration as an early out from prison and not a genuine desire to change I do not think it will be as much a benefit. They can not unrape their victims so the time still needs to be served. We all know certain crimes have certain sentences and to commit that crime is to accept the punishment.

I w

ould agree with that, since I do not view castration approach as punishment but more as a deterrent/rehabilition/treatment. There definitely also ought to be some punishment involved since, as you say, rape can not be undone and one would have to face the consequences of one's actions like all other criminals. However, in the cases of sexual offenses where no to minimal violence was involved, I tend to agree with Plix's suggestion that it should be possible to dramatically cut down sentence time or limit the punishment to financial reparations only, in exchange for volunteer testosterone-lowering measures (with mandatory saliva monitoring, when and if neccessary).

Francis (imported) wrote: Thu Sep 13, 2007 3:28 pm There was a case in Germany some time ago that I read about where a sex offender had agreed to be castrated and was released on that basis after the op. He had then gone on to TRT and thereafter attacked and killed a young girl.

This case is one that is among the 3% recidivism rate noted in the Wille & Beier study. Quoting directly from their article:

This one case is in several ways, exceptional and made spectacular criminal case history in the FRG. This applicant of average intelligence (IQ = 93) was burdened by divorce and chaotic family life as a child. After completing an apprenticeship as a butcher and military service, he abused alcohol and had an unsteady work history. He was involved in minor delinquency, but also carried out a violent pedophilic assault on a girl. After a suspended sentence, he underwent psychotherapeutic treatment which he soon discontinued because he did not think it was working. Three years later, at the age of 30, a pedophilic offence followed and then he was committed to a psychiatric hospital. At that time he was castrated and he was soon released into the community and he returned to his fiancee. After 1-1/2 years, he achieved legal permission for hormone substitution therapy employing androgens with the aim of improving his severely diminished libido and his erection/cohabitation difficulties. This was accompanied by a revival of his pedophile inclinations. Following sexual contact with a 7 year old girl, he ended up killing her. During the period of detention, two follow-up interviews took place. A few weeks later in court, under the eyes of the interviewer, he was shot dead by the mother of the murdered girl.

Most men would consider castration a punishment. Of course most of us here would call it a bonus. Immunocastration can be administered once a year as a TRT deterrent. It makes TRT useless. The only problem is it's not approved for humans yet.

When I was arrested for a sex offense many decades ago (non-violent consensual sex with a minor between 13 & 16), I wanted an immediate castration. Unfortunately I could not get one. If castration or even nullification had been offered to me as an alternative sentence, I would have agreed. (Oh yeah - no prison - just probation - I was very lucky to escape prison. Thank God that I could afford a good [and expensive] lawyer.)

First time offenders in statutory or non-violent cases should be given probation and offered voluntary castration. Second time offenders should be given the choice of castration, or prison. Third time offenders should be given the choice of prison and castration, or nullification and no prison. All of the above should be given probation and suitable counseling if allowed to reenter the community.

Violent or extreme repeat offenders should be either locked up for life or executed.

The 35 year Florida man was castrated and has a jail time of 25 years.

If the State is willing to castrate rapists, and other sexual orientated crimes, why not then is it so hard to find a doctor to perform castration on a mans wishes, as in the case of vasectomy.

stevesd (imported) wrote: Sat Sep 22, 2007 3:51 pm The 35 year Florida man was castrated and has a jail time of 25 years.

If the State is willing to castrate rapists, and other sexual orientated crimes, why not then is it so hard to find a doctor to perform castration on a mans wishes, as in the case of vasectomy.

Double standards, as usual. BTW, even being a dangerous sex offender is no guarantee that you will be able to obtain a safe orchiectomy. In fact, only a couple of states these days have a legislation that allows for a rapist to obtain castration on demand. Other states simply DENY such requests in most cases. The recent case of James Jenkins in Virginia is a good example; he felt compelled to do the job himself with a shaving razor to stop his bothersome urges as the state was not willing to help him out (he was basically told to sod off when he initially asked for a safe orchiectomy while in prison).

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 00960.html