" De mortuis nil nisi bonum."

Jesus,

>

JesusA (imported) wrote: Thu Jul 02, 2009 12:36 pm Michael Jackson: The Castrato?

Pop music isn't my cup of tea, so I never cared much for MJ. But this article suspecting him to be of relevance to our noble group got me interested. I actually had no idea how his voice sounded, so I did my homework and downloaded about two dozen sound samples, spanning most of his career. While I'm no expert, I know a thing or two about voices of boys, girls, men, women and castrati. Here are my findings:

- On the early Jackson 5 recordings, MJ has a slightly smeary soprano voice, which is typical for young children, before the closeness of puberty starts clearly differentiating the voices of boys and girls. On some of those tracks I could also hear another soprano voice, slightly higher and crystal clear, which was undoubtedly that of a boy

JesusA (imported) wrote: Thu Jul 02, 2009 12:34 pm in the early stages of puberty

- probably his brother Marlon.

- On some of the tracks of the Motown Years album, I heard MJ singing in a high clear boy soprano voice. He must have been

JesusA (imported) wrote: Thu Jul 02, 2009 12:34 pm in the early stages of puberty,

maybe 12 or 13 years old. I would say his voice was a little higher than that of the average boy, but that's no surprise because on average in negro boys the rise in voice pitch during early puberty is more pronounced than in other races. Some African boy singers have outstandingly high voices for about one year or so.

- In "Music and me" the voice shows certain undertones that signal the presence of voice change.

- On the "Off the wall" and "Thriller" albums, MJ's voice is a high tenor, with lots of falsetto use. Certainly not a castrato voice. It sounds like he went through a completely normal voice change, had a typical young men's tenor voice, but was trying to use mostly its higher range and the falsetto, for artistic/commercial reasons.

- On the "Bad" album, his voice is tenor, even in many parts a rather lowish tenor, bordering on baritone. Same thing on "Dangerous".

So, my conclusion is that most definitely he wasn't a castrato.

May he RIP. He was no saint of my devotion, and pretty weird, but undoubtedly he gave many people much pleasure, and deserves recognition for that.

Il Musico (imported) wrote: Sat Jul 04, 2009 12:15 pm So, my conclusion is that most definitely he wasn't a castrato.

That's what I'd also concluded, although I couldn't bring your expertise to any argument I felt that the cited article wasn't really cogent.

Well, I was looking at pictures of Michael Jackson in the magazines and I did notice something I don't even have myself. That is underneath that heavy base that he puts on his face on some of his pictures is a 5:00 shadow. He is also reportedly bald. Both are indicators that he may not be a pituatary eunuch. I can outdo his voice any day as far as pitch is concerned but I am not a trained singer.

There is an extremely troubling aspect about them finding that "milk of magnesia" sedative in his house. You see, I don't think he did actually die of drugs and that they won't conclude it in the autopsy. I think he overexerted himself exercising in order to get back in shape. He was fifty years old (about three weeks younger than me). When he was younger he could dance like a maniac and I could too although not as good as him. I was actually break dancing back in the blue jean (early) disco days. But at forty and definately at fifty years of age it's high time to totally admit that you will never ever EVER be able to do a lot of things that you did in the past. It was very futile for him to attempt an upcoming "comeback" tour. He overexerted himself trying to get back in shape and had a heart attack in the process. That's what it looks like to me.

Way back when there was this controversy about his first lawsuit alleging him as ever having sex with a minor, I did not know what to believe. In fact I would have given him the benefit of the doubt. Later on I heard the dj on the radio deciding that he was probably guilty because of the official statement he released protesting his innocence. Later on he played the confession and I listened to it. His voice seemed so contrived to me that sadly I also had to consider the fact that he was very well a "child molester". I did like his music afterwards but I had to always consider the fact that he probably really was a child molester wondering whether he should actually be serving time in jail instead. And so now they find this "date rape" drug in his home which I'm sure that he never would have used himself. So now WHAT AM I SUPPOSED TO THINK!!!

devi (imported) wrote: Sun Jul 05, 2009 7:57 am And so now they find this "date rape" drug in his home which I'm sure that he never would have used himself. So now WHAT AM I SUPPOSED TO THINK!!!

It is hardly a date rape drug - it is not "G" or a "Rufie." It is a surgical sedative that is very powerful. I would look to his personal physician (hack) for the answers to the questions that may arise from this one.

I would tend to agree with Kristoff.

I am reconsidering my position regarding Michael Jackson and his obscession with children.

It is obvious that the autopsy is going to come back a no-bill. In other words, non-conclusive as to the exact cause of his demise.

In a position such as his, all things must be considered, and with the proven track record of the legal jurisdiction in charge of the so-called 'investigation' and my own careful speculation, I suspect that foul-play is a very viable possibility.

Jackson had basically been out of the American public eye for quite some time. He had custody of 3 children that were either fathered by him and/or were his responsibility to raise.

Michael's life was infested at best, controlled at worse and all for a good reason. He had a personal physician on salary to the tune of 150k a month. Roughly, that adds up to 1.8 million a year. The salary was in arrears 300k.

Michael was preparing to follow a 50-concert track in Europe that would have easily netted him in excess of 100 million, fueled a comeback, and landed him on top of the pop culture again. Thus, his obsession with the obvious would have been made virtually undetectable and he could have shed whatever handlers that did not enable him.

As we all know, child molesters generally never get over their abusive obsessions, and Michael stood on the precifice of an uncontrolled fall into the same hole that smashed his career and reputation twice before, but this time with children of his own at the age that he seemed to be fixated upon, which could have made his abuse virtually undetectable until these children were of age, and by then he could have really messed them up and they would have defended him.

So, the three facets of murder were all in place for whoever wanted to stop him from his next move, motive, opportunity and ability. Jackson was surrounded with many people besides the doctor, which seems to be the prime suspect and it has been in the media and is general knowledge that Potassium Chloride (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potassium_chloride) kills and is undetectable by whatever method of post-mortem analysis that is used, because the musculature releases HUGE amounts of potassium chloride upon death, virtually making it virtually impossible to determine if this was what caused death. Although a controlled substance it is much easier to cook up than a batch of crystal METH.

Since the doctor said that he had detected a pulse but was not breathing when he discovered Jackson unresponsive, this indicates that Jackson had not been down long before his doctor got to him, and it also indicates that he was in close proximity and suspected that something was a-miss, otherwise why check on him?

By the time the ambulance arrived Jackson's heart stopped despite the physician's best efforts at life support and knowledge of how to reverse the process of dying in an otherwise healthy individual, that is IF his idea of what was killing Jackson was correct. The fact is that the physician is the natural suspect, but he really has no motive, and stood to lose 150k per month income.

Therefore, I am speculating that persons or persons unknown thought that it would be best for Jackson to die before he permanently trashed his life and the lives of those around him with his perverted sexual ways while he still had followers who supported him.

The minor question is, who did it?

The MAJOR question is should we really care?

jemagirl (imported) wrote: Fri Jul 03, 2009 5:17 pm I am not knowledgeable about autogynephilia, and there may indeed be such people, but I am actually pretty certain that not all transsexuals can accurately be describe as being "

JesusA (imported) wrote: Thu Jul 02, 2009 12:34 pm ex

jemagirl (imported) wrote: Fri Jul 03, 2009 5:17 pm clusively and unambiguously attracted to men

".

What exactly is the definition of autogynephilia anyway? If gender and sexuality are separate inborn traits what is the benefit of crating this category? I have seen men who are sexually attracted to themselves as men, and I don't doubt there are also women who are sexually attracted to themselves in the same way. They are the object of their own sexual desire.

So it the desire to change the body through surgical means that is one of the salient features of autogynephilia? In other words can a lesbian be an autogynephile if she is sexually attracted to herself or is it only possible for her to be an autogynephile if she was first born as a man?

If some one is bisexual and transgendered m2f are they then half autogynephile? Would it not also be possible for an m2f to be sexually aroused by the idea of being a woman and that part of the

ir phantasy is to be as a woman having sex with a man.

Hi Jema,

One of the criticisms of autogynephilia made by some gender therapists and trans persons of is exactly the point you make. It puts the client's sexuality on the table even when gender is the issue being discussed.

This is Ray Blanchard's own description of autogynephilia (http://www.autogynephilia.org/origins.htm): " In 1989 I coined the term autogynephilia from Greek roots meaning “love of one

JesusA (imported) wrote: Thu Jul 02, 2009 12:35 pm self as a woman” and defined it a

s a male’s propensity to be erotically aroused by the thought or image of himself as a woman. My identification of this erotic orientation was not the result of any advance in imaging technologies, laboratory assays, or computationally intensive statistical procedures. It was the result of a perceptual shift—a shift in the way I saw, heard, and understood statements that patients had been making to clinicians for decades. In this essay, I review the perceptions of earlier clinicians and attempt to show how these led to my own formulation."

Blanchard clearly admits that his autogynephilia model isn't based on science. It is a result of his own perceptual shift. Perceptions not backed up by reseearch are always suspect in my book.

Some critics have pointed out what would seem to be obvious: Many hea

jemagirl (imported) wrote: Fri Jul 03, 2009 5:17 pm lthy, well-adjusted natal women are d

elighted with their own sexuality. This does not necessarily mean they are sexually attracted to themselves. Why shouldn't a transsexual who identifies as a woman in gender feel the same way?

I wish I had the time to research a proper response to your thoughtful points. I've read a lot about this. My own gender therapist says she has never had a male-to-female client who fit the autogynephilia model. On the other hand, I have read a few accounts of transsexuals who feel they fit this model.

Another interesting point is: why is there so much discussion of sexuality in male-to-female transsexuals while there is little similar discussion of the sexuality of female-to-male transsexuals?

devi (imported) wrote: Sun Jul 05, 2009 7:57 am And so now they find this "date rape" drug in his home which I'm sure that he never would have used himself. So now WHAT AM I SUPPOSED TO THINK!!!

The drug is only used during surgery and under very controlled conditions. If one could find a doctor to prescribe it the pharmacy would not fill it. It appears that MJ was an insomniac and was addicted to this drug,

Potassium Chloride

A-1 (imported) wrote: Sun Jul 05, 2009 10:08 am kills and is undetectable by whatever method of post-mortem analysis that is used, because the musculature releases HUGE amounts of potassium chloride upon death, virtually making it virtually impossible to determine if this was what caused death.

Yes, KCl in high doses is toxic and causes cardiac arrest; it is given to cardiac patients using diuretics to lower blood pressure by releasing sodium which also flushes out the potassium. Medical replacement always comes in coated tablets because it tastes so fucking bad; it would be highly unlikely that Jackson or anyone else would voluntarily swallow a lethal dose of an unpalatable substance. The other route is by injection, and the injection site should have been visible at autopsy. MJ was rehearsing furiously and reportedly in pain (as is typical for 50 year old men trying to perform like 20 year olds). He had physicians who were giving him pain killers; my suspicion is that the blood toxicology reports will find massive opiate products in his blood stream; overdoses of vicodin and demerol cause cardiac arhythmias and arrest. If he were mixing opioids, it would be hard to revive him, and that is my bet as to cause of death. The coroner has probably already figured this out, but is waiting for hard evidence from the lab before making a public statement.

I doubt that in the entourage there was a good Samaritan willing to kill to defend MJ's non-descript children and at the same time put a stop to his own paycheck. The reason that MJ was so fucking weird was that it was financially rewarding for so many people to let him be so fucking weird, and if they didn't give a rat's ass about him dangling the kid over the balcony in London years ago, they didn't give a shit last week either.

Sorry, I'm not a romantic; I've seen far too many examples of parenting to believe in saviors.

IbPervert (imported) wrote: Sun Jul 05, 2009 5:40 pm The drug is only used during surgery and under very controlled conditions. If one could find a doctor to prescribe it the pharmacy would not fill it. It appears that MJ was an insomniac and was addicted to this drug,

Propofol is indeed very much one of the date rape drugs! ABSOLUTELY!!!

Plus it is also in the very same class of sedatives as roofies. This is one discription below of it is from the Urban Dictionary which generally may not be all that accurate but still it does give you some idea about it. I used to know the chemical name of the class from where it comes from but I just cannot remember right off hand. It is actually descended from drugs andministered to mental patients since the sixties and before. I think benzodiazaprine is the word but I'm not quite sure.

Slang used by medical professionals for the drug Propofol which has a similar milky texture to Milk of Magnesia. Propofol is a short-acting sedative and hypnotic with no analgesic properties but is used in adjunct to anesthesia.

"That vent patient is getting twitchy. Give her some milk of amnesia."

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1. (http://milk-of-amnesia.urbanup.com/1447246) Milk of amnesia 17 up (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.p ... id=3215218#), 5 down (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.p ... id=3215218#)http://static3.urbandictionary.com/imag ... 1246829465 (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.p ... id=3215218#)http://static1.urbandictionary.com/imag ... 1246829465 (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.p ... id=3215218#)Noun: Alcohol. A drink which, if consumed in sufficient quantities makes you forget large episodes of your life. A popular phrase due to its assonance with the patent medicine 'Milk of Magnesia'.

"...and while dancing you unzipped her dress and pulled it to the floor. Then you pissed in the bride's champagne glass and honk (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=honk)ed up all over the cake."

"Yes, I remember every bit of that. Just tell me how come I woke up this morning in the driver's seat of my car outside my house?"

"Put it down to the milk of amnesia."