Peter (imported) wrote: Sun Feb 24, 2002 7:42 pm After only 2 to 3 generations the natural shyness of the wolves changes dramatically. Agression towards men had disappeared (!) After breeding with a peticular "doglike" female fox, her offspring for all means and purposes behaved like dogs: thay CRAVED human contact. Mind you , this was after 6 to 8 generations only...

I was unaware that wolves and foxes could breed, since wolves/dogs are not in the same family as foxes.

As for society not accepting the more aggressive, well, look at our culture as far as football, hockey, racing, wrestling ... the list goes on and on. We're a society that seems to adore and commercialize violence and aggression.

And just to throw a wrench into the common belief that male hormone levels relate to temper and aggression or lack thereof - I did NOT experience this at all when my testicles shut down in Dec/Jan of 1999. (No, no one would remove them.) In fact, it made me even more foul-tempered than I already was. The round of HRT was a total disaster by July, and I've not sweetened up nor calmed down at all. Perhaps there's something there to be said about the foul disposition of eunuchs after all ...

Andrew has the answer to road rage, off with the nuts !

Thanks Paolo, Andrew and KGmac!

Paolo:

I haven't been clear enough maybe about the foxes and wolves. The foxes and wolves were not cross bred (proper English??), foxes were treated as pets, then they were observed in how far each next generation changed.

Your comment about our society adoring agressiveness; hmm this might be true, however it does not address the issue of changes in wolves vs. dogs and domesticated foxes as observed.

Are you not confusing competitiveness (as in sports) with agressivety???.

BTW; do you have any idea why you became "even more" foul-tempered after your testicles shut down??

Andrew:

Interesting to read how your experiences differ from Paolos.

KGmac:

Although not very scientific, your posting sure made me laugh!!

Peter

As for why I got even more foul-tempered, I am not really sure. Explosive tempers run in my family. Unfortunately, even the next generation of nephews has it as well - perhaps even worse.

I battled recurring infections for almost two years ( I think, the files are somewhere in this mess! ), and when I finally started having major problems with the testicles I also found out some other disturbing things as well. Given my frame of mind and my temper, I figure it all added up to intensify my foul disposition.

Briefly, Auntie informed me that I had the mumps when I was 3. I don't remember that, but she says I did. There are no medical records, as I didnt' exactly have the best of care as a child. I didn't start puberty until late, and then only after I tore my right hand in half at 13.5 years old. I got a LOT of recurring boosters and vaccinations after that - right about the time puberty starting hitting me. Hell, my voice wasn't fully changed until I was past 16 and I never shaved until I was 17.5 or so, almost 18.

I still think all those shots were hormones, and when I stopped going in on a regular basis, I seem to have been 'levelled out.' Regular Boy Scout physicals don't usually include blood work, I think. I never really had too much of a sex drive after my mid 20's, but the beginning half was pretty good!

So much for the history beforehand. Add to the mix that I had bad chronic testicle pain, and seven doctors dismissed me as a head case before I found one that believed me. Eventually, after an ultrasound and a schedule of hot baths/massaging of the cords/testicles, I let him talk me into HRT. Keep in mind I'd already been through the shutdown and had all the usual - fatigue, mild hot flashes, total loss of libido, impotency. Then along comes the HRT and suddenly I was a horny boy again!

However, it also made me more aggressive, as everyone pointed out to me. I was pretty much just a mouthy asshole before. On the HRT, I started getting violent and impossible to live with. Then I had a massive anxiety attack that landed me in the ER, with the Dr's thinking that I'd had a heart attack.

I recently had a discussion on the subject of chest pains with my GP, a brief visit, and he brought up the subject again when he saw that in my records. The more he thinks about it, he won't rule out that he thinks I might have had a light stroke as well at that time. I wasn't totally honest with him on my dietary and smoking habits when he put me on HRT, and he almost fainted. So I quit the HRT.

Well, here came the hot flashes, fatigue, etc., etc., all over again. And I got even fouler-tempered ... which he still can't really understand, because of what he thinks is low hormone levels, I should be settling down. But considering how miserable I've been, as online friends can attest to, I'm surprised that I've not.

I have to say I've probably mellowed just a bit in the last year or so, but not by very much. I think it was last year that I broke my hand punching the window out of my truck, which probably indicates some loss of bone density. I've punched a lot of people and things out in the past, and never so much as cracked a knuckle. I am, however, one of the millions of Americans now who have no insurance and can't afford to carry it anyway. I have no clue what my testosterone numbers are now, nor my bone mass, nor do I care. I only see my GP for those $30 office calls that last a few minutes - he listens, shakes his head, refills my allergy meds, and I leave. We don't address the issue of the testicular problems anymore.

Of course, the pain has settled to tolerable and controllable levels in the past near-year, and I'm used to it. Sometimes it does go away, but my cords are a mess, so he says. Thing is, he won't work on them ... money or not. And this is after he said he would as a last resort. Go figure.

Anyway, that's about it as far as I can remember. Hope this helps.

But has your doctor done a check lately of just what your testosterone and estrogen levels are lately?

The answer to that would be no.

I can't afford a high-level office visit nor the lab fees.

That and I really don't care.

I don't even think I kept the papers on the few counts that I did have that inspired him to talk me into the HRT mistake anyway. I had insurance then. All I recall was that the crazy old Arab coot (and I DO like him) was stunned at how low it was.

I recall reading somewhere (The New York Times Science Page, perhaps) that men (and women) need testostrone to interact civilly. Testosterone, in part, may socialize us. That is one reason, that I regret the reduction of it in my life because of medication (and now perhaps age).

My father lost one of his nuts a few years ago. He simply became more confrontational after the loss.

I think you need to distinguish between "male agressive" and "foul-tempered". Aggressiveness is an offensive feeling, whereas foul-temperedness is a defensive feeling.

When a young man feels aggressive he prowls the streets with his rowdy friends, he challenges guys at the club, he thrills to play contact sports, he pursues women in order to "score", he races his car on the street.

Many of the transsexuals I know are extremely cranky or bipolar (sometimes high, sometimes depressed). Some are rude and selfish. But none of them exhibit what I would call male aggression.

I believe that high testosterone makes one tend toward male aggression, while low testosterone makes one tend toward crankiness.