okay ... here goes ......

I've lurked, read, and posted here for years.

In so many ways I identify as a gay male who desires a vagina instead of conventional male anatomy. No penis -- no balls -- a "cockpit" as some call it. I have had these desires and fantasies since I was a child. I have never identifed as really "male," but never as female either.

'Coming out' as a gay male made a lot of sense to me -- and I have to say I have never felt I was really a woman. I like being a 'fag' and it makes sense to me. However -- the idea of having female equipment (while remaining a "male" in lifestlye) is such a powerful, frequently recurring, and often overwhelming fantasy, that I know it is very, very significant to my psychological make up.

The problem: I'm dating a guy now -- and, ummmmm .....

Uhhhhh ....

I kinda like having a dick.

And my balls are awfully fun too.

And so are my boyfriend's.

I feel so ....... GAY!!

And delighted to be so.

I like his equipment, and I enjoy mine as well ... and when we are together I couldn't imagine my frequently fantisized alteration as part of the equation.

However -- I've had boyfriends before, and as soon as I've broken up -- the "cockpit" desires resume.

The "need" to remove my dick & balls.

This is my question:

WTF???

Sorry to be no more eloquent than that.

Am I two people?

Are my desires purely conditional?

If I were to go through with my interest in surgical alteration, would it be the mistake of my life?

Or the path to fulfillment?!!

Here's the other rub .... I am more than happy sexually with my boyfriend.....

Yet, the one night he is away .... Here I am back on Eunuch Archive.

Reading about penectomies ....

Whaaaaa ....!!??

joey

I don't really have any advice or wisdom to share with you, but I can tell you that I have experienced much the same thing. I have a long standing fixation with transsexuals and a desire to become one, but whenever I am in a relationship the desire seems to mostly go away. I guess it is mostly like a subconcious thing and once you get distracted it is not such a big deal or at least not as important.

If anything you are not alone

I relate to so much you have written in your post. I think I am a bit more on the female side than you are, but I also came out as gay because that did seem to make sense at the time. Now days though I want to be more female, and Gay doesn't quite seem to fit me so well.

Having a boy friend does change the way you feel about yourself. How you are with some one else is always different than how you are by yourself. So it makes sense to feel differently about what you want physically.

Joydivision_27,

From reading your post there are a few things that don't make a lot of sense to me, but forgive me...I'm not in your situation, but I did want to point out a few things.

Having your "outie" turned into an "inny" by surgery, for someone like yourself is impossible. What you describe is basically the SRS procedure. The surgeons that perform this procedure adhere to a very strict code of ethics known as the Harry Benjamin Standards of Care. To get the surgery you describe requires that the following criteria be met.

You must be under the care of a licensed professional gender counselor and must be certified as GID

You must be on female hormone therapy for a minimum of 6 months

You must have two letters from professional gender counselors recommending the SRS procedure

You have to live your life, full time, as a female for a least 6 months.

You have to come up with about $17,000.00 to pay for the surgery.

The money may not be the problem, but based on your description of yourself, I don't know if you would be willing or even capable of fulfilling the other four requirements.

I don't know of anyone who is capable of performing the procedure you desire that is willing to fore go these requirements...they just won't do it...period. I know. I've done a lot of checking.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with being gay. I'm gay myself. Being certified GID and preferring female companions, I guess that makes me a lesbian.

I would highly suggest that you seek out professional consoling and discuss these feelings with someone in the know, otherwise just be happy with who you are...a gay male.

okay ... here goes ......

joydivision_27 (imported) wrote: Mon May 28, 2007 9:00 pm In so many ways I identify as a gay male who desires a vagina instead of conventional male anatomy. No penis -- no balls -- a "cockpit" as some call it. I have had these desires and fantasies since I was a child. I have never identifed as really "male," but never as female either.

you're not alone to feel so. we love men and we are men: it's a definition of gay (sorry for my poor english..I'm french) As you, I wish to have dick and bowls, but to have also vagina. For me, sometimes, I wish to have nothing, simply full nullo. But in my head, I'm always male (or eunuch male) who loves male. So I say I'm gay,( even if I've fallen in love twice with women) transgender is not for me. I belive it's the same for you.

Hard to know what you have to do, no? For me, too!

So, I stay now as I am: simply man. But, the future ?.........

Thanks for the replies!!

As is so often the case with this board -- I am so happy to hear that I am not alone in my thinking. I really love this community!!

Erica Anne -- thank you for your thoughtful response.

I've read your posts over the past months and I think you are a brave woman, and I applaud your decisions to become who you were meant to be, despite external pressures and prejudices. You go girl!!

However, I think we are coming at the idea of 'transgender' from somewhat different angles.

I think we both agree that nature itself has estsablished a binary system -- male and female: Two complimentary and symbiotic entities, that in the best intents of evolution, produce offspring and propagate our species.

However, nature has also produced mutations and exceptions -- and I think that we as 'transgender' fit into the latter category, most notably 'exceptions.' The Eunuch Archive is most certainly not about bilogical, hereosexual procreatrion.

From an evolutionary perspective, identifying as either a male or female 'transgender' is irrelevant -- because neither produce offspring.

Although, from a psychological perspective, it has everything to do with social role and social identity. In other words -- who are we in relation to others.

If I were a wild child (raised by wolves or pigeons) -- what gender would I consider myself to be?

I dunno -- gender identity probably wouldn't matter all that much without social (or biological) context.

That's the issue that you and I are both grappling with -- thousands of years of social prejudice, built upon nature's binary logic.

A related tangent -- homosexuality was technicaly considered a mental illness until the 1970s. So it does seem that establishment certification itself evolves.

Enter the 20th & 21st centuries .....

Homosexuailty is considered genetic, and transsexulaity is considered phycho-physiological. It's only a matter of time until transsexuality is also deemed genetic.

Nevertheless, biological science has figured out ways to cross the great gender divide physically (and eventually genetically).

The result is that many women and men who are trapped in psychologically ill-fitting biological bodies now have a means to correct a 'natural' accident.

As a result -- we are definitely happier.

But, in terms of the biological evolution of our species ... we are both irrelevant.

On the other hand, in terms of personal psychological well-being ... these advances are both invaluable and inevitable.

So where does that leave the two of us?

From a pro-creative standpoint -- Post-surgery, neither of us will contribute much to the gene pool.

But .... we may both find that our biological bodies have come into more synchronicity with our minds -- and who we ultimately see ourselve to be.

And as Hamlet so eloquently said ... "To Be or not to Be. That is the question ...."

And, if we continue the lame Shakespearean metaphor, "outrageous fortune" has given both of us a psychologically incorrect body:

You are a lesbian woman, born with a man's body.

I am a homosexual man, who desires to remain so, but with a physical alteration that is only tecnically possible in our modern time.

So this is what I am geting at:

We are both dependent on scientific advance to bring our selves and our bodies into synch.

For many ... traveling is all about the destination.

For others ... it is about the jouney.

I like the idea of the in-between places. they are far more interesting to me than either departure or arrival.

I do not want to be a woman -- because I am not a woman.

But in all reality, I'm not much of a man either. I'm somewhere in the middle -- more man than woman, but still not really either int he purset sense.

I wear womens' undergarments, but I do not dress outwardly as a woman.

Because -- the feminine part of me is the most personal part. It is the part that I want to share intimately with a man ... but not as a woman.

So you may be right -- I could defintley use counseling if I am to be part of the binary natural world.

But science has enabled us to transcend that system if we so desire.

So why not be in-between?!!

Maybe the in-between place ie the SPIRITUAL place. Where biology cedes to exception. Maybe that's why in ancient times, hermaphrodites were considered divine, and eunuchs divine agents.

Hmmmmm ....

My original post had more to do with ambivelence than desire.

I currently enjoy being MALE in the gayest sense of the word!

In fact, my boyfriend doesn't even mind the panty thing ... he finds it fun!

I just wonder if I will soon return to my inevitable (and life-long) desire to be "in-tween"

And what to do about it ....

Anyway ... sorry to meander into such philosophical ramblings ....

But thanks, as always, to the Eunuch Archive for being a kind and patient community.

And, Erica Anne -- you go girl!!

Joey

joydivision_27 (imported) wrote: Mon May 28, 2007 9:00 pm I feel so ....... GAY!!

And delighted to be so.

Oooh, a gay gay. How nice for you. ~.~

joydivision_27 (imported) wrote: Mon May 28, 2007 9:00 pm If I were to go through with my interest in surgical alteration, would it be the

joydivision_27 (imported) wrote: Tue May 29, 2007 10:19 pm mistake of my life?

Or the path to fulfillment?!!

It sounds very m

uch like your desires best be left fantasies.

In fact, my boyfriend doesn't even mind the panty thing ... he finds it fun!

Aha! Sweet. I'm glad you finally caught one that's cool with that.

Tanglog!!

I think you may be right.

It is quite a monumental and irreversable decision.

But desire really does exceed fantasy sometimes.

Here's the bizarre part: While happily involved ... I am nevertheless still popping into the Eunuch Archive, reading all my usual topics.

Yeah -- my new boyf is a bit freaky himself, so he takes my idiosyncrasies in stride.

And who knows .... maybe now that I am with someone accepting, things may be different this time.

I do hope, that if I do choose to transcend the fantasy, that I am as brave and decisive as you.

As always .... my hero!

From what you've said, fantasy is the key.

Sometimes reality sucks!

If you ever get serious, try chemical first, it should give you insight one way or another.

Back in the late 80's or early 90's I read in an LA street corner newspaper about 'UltraSexuals'. It might have been a hoax, but the idea was that there was a doctor in LA who would cut the tissue that holds your penis against your pubic bone then he would cut into the tissue behind this and create a pocket. The end result was that you could invert your penis into your body and create a little vagina with your inside-out foreskin. Over time you could stretch this foreskin to accommodate another man's penis. An inside-out erection would hold the 'vagenis' in your body while you were being pleasured. The only externally visible effect (when you were not inverted) was that your penis would hang straight down since the connecting tissue had been severed. I don't know if this was for real or just a story, but it sounds like the kind of dual purpose 'pegina' or 'vagenis' that you are looking for.

DocT