I just read the article in Daughter's post, and this made me think about the general subject of transgendering and the identity of the transgendered. I think it's clear that the Muxes aren't seen as being quite equivalent to women who are, in an organic sense, born to that gender, and I'm not sure I have ever heard of a culture where transgender types (male to female) are actually considered female in all aspects conceived of by the culture.

This seems to me to raise the question of whether transgendering inevitably creates a social division including at least three genders, wherever it is accepted--whether or not the transgender individuals consider themselves to be fully members of the reassigned sex. I haven't studied this subject in any detail, but there always seems to be some distinction made between the transgender person and the person who is considered to be born into the gender involved.

And, in my view, this raises the question of whether it is possible (or, perhaps, I should say, feasible) for someone to be truly a transgendered individual (male to female, or female to male) if the society in which the individual lives, refuses to recognize the person as a member of the reassigned sex. In terms of an individual's identity, it ought to be possible for someone to change to the gender that the person's mind identifies as its own. But gender is inherently something which involves social interaction. If you consider the extreme case, where a transgendered individual can't find anyone who will treat her, or him, as the case may be, as someone belonging to the gender to which the individual has changed; then can the gender change be considered fully successful--regardless of whether any discernible distinction can be found between the transgendered individual and someone who had that gender in all respects at birth?

Look, for example, at the Hijra communities of South Asia. Hijras undergo surgery which completely excises the external male organs, so they have a smooth crotch, similar to a woman's (though admittedly without the female cleft or vaginal aperture); the operation is sometimes performed early enough, that the hijra looks like a woman; breast development often occurs; they adopt female names, and use feminine pronouns to refer to each other; they use makeup to appear more feminine; and, unfortunately, many of them even make their incomes in a profession ordinarily dominated by women--prostitution. Yet hijras are not considered by Indian society to be women, and, everywhere in South Asia that hijra communities exist, they are regarded as a third sexual type. It's true that they refer to themselves as "neither men nor women"; but the attempt to make themselves appear to be women, and to assume the characterists of women, is obvious. If I remember correctly, before excising the sex organs of a person who is to become a surgically changed hijra, the dai ma asks, "Do you want to be a woman?"

Of course, the predominant modern view appears to be, that any individual should be allowed to be whatever sex he or she wants. Myself, I am willing to accept anybody as whichever gender the person has chosen for himself or herself, so long as the person doesn't get intrusive about it. But I do have to wonder if society has the ability to deny someone that priviliege if people in society, in general, don't want to allow gender change.

if we in modern day, accepted a third gender, i am sure a fourth would be needed as well. in my opinion this just may become a larger issue.

i think it is fascinating, again, that people of the world are able to create a body with in which they are comfertable. for me i cant think of a life without a pee spout. simple because i drink allot of fluids and dont want to have to sit to expel them.

i really do like the story of the Hejira. i feel for them. i think in away i may be very simular to them. this makes me happy. to know that others out in the world choose to remove some as the same tissue as i.

thank you for the story of the Hijra.

z

People always like to have a label to put on things. That gives them the power to talk about it. With out labels, the power of language is diminished. Also for some reason people are given to thinking in terms of binary opposition, i.e.. hot/cold, light/dark, and so on. Unfortunately gender is not well described by category or labels.

Q: how many genders are there? A: As many as you can measure

Western music divides the octave into 12 whole notes while Indian music divides it into 24 whole notes. Heinrich Rudolf Hertz (http://nostalgia.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hei ... dolf_Hertz) described pitch as a frequency measured in cycles per second, which comes closer to reality, but still there are all the pitches that fall between 99 & 100 Hrtz. There are literally as many distinct frequencies as your ability to distinguish them, and so it is with gender.

Jemagirl--

I understand where you're coming from in your response, and I think that Jesus has found quite a bit of research info and anthropological reportage that tend to support what you say. So would your view be, that the social view of transgendering is irrelevant, since society's accepted notion of gender is not applicable to the situation in the real world?

Hompty--

The description of the hijras (also known as kinnars) which I gave in post #1, while it is accurate (though it should be noted that many members of hijra communities have not had surgery) is really only a sketch. If you're interested in the subject, you can find a number of websites which describe hijra life and show some photos of them, and the book, Neither Men Nor Women by Serena Nanda is considered a classic study of the hijra way of life. The book should still be in print--I think it's used as a text in some college courses.