Kristoff and MRT began discussing the question of BIID (Body Integrity Identity Disorder) on the thread Is Kimmel the best way to go? (http://www.eunuch.org/vbulletin/showthr ... 385&page=9), posts # 133 and 134. Kristoff suggested that the entire question deserved a thread of its own, hence this post.

Both BIID and GID (Gender Identity Disorder) are deemed to be “psychiatric” “illnesses”. (Both “illness” and “psychiatric” are pejorative terms! I would like to find other words that don’t connote what many would regard as “insanity,” but haven’t found any yet that work.) Both are dissonances between the image of the self and body that is inside one’s head and the actual body that one inhabits. There is a long medical and psychiatric history of attempting to “cure” individuals of these disorders – everything from psychiatric counseling and hospitalization through drugging them into submission (and sometimes into a vegetative state). One of my daughter’s close friends from high school, once a very bright and creative artist and poet who made a good living from her creativity, has been drugged to the point where she can barely function in society even when off her medication. There is little left of what made her the wonderful young woman that she was.

Years of effort have gone into trying to find ways to bring the mind into line with the reality of the body. It hasn’t worked. Instead, it’s been found that it’s much easier (and certainly faster and cheaper) to bring the body into line with the mind.

For those with gender dysphoria (Male-to-Female, Female-to-Male, and Male-to-Eunuch), the ONLY cure that’s been found to work is surgical. Change the body to match the mind and the person is able to function fully in society.

BIID is less well studied, though the same solution seems to be the only one that works. BIID ranges from individuals who are dissatisfied with the shape of their nose or the size of their breasts and who obsess about getting plastic surgery to repair their bodies to those individuals who want appendages that don't mesh with their mental image of themselves removed. The literature talks mostly about those who want fingers, toes, arms, or legs removed to fit their mental self-image, but it’s clear that some want all or part of their genitals removed for the same reason. The ONLY cure that has yet been found is to remove the offending body part!

These individuals then are able to function fully in society. They may have no further problems and do not graduate to wanting yet another body part removed. They may well have adjustment issues to manage in this area, but as far as medicine or psychiatry is concerned, they are CURED.

The research into what “causes” either GID or BIID is inconclusive. There are some hints that hormonal surges in the mother while the infant is still in the womb may contribute to GID. One key piece of evidence supporting this is that men whose mothers took diethylstilbestrol (DES) to combat morning sickness have a far greater rate of Male-to-Female GID than the average. For BIID, there has not yet been enough research into causal factors to even make a reasonable guess as to causes. About all that’s been clearly noted is that BIID tends to correlate with higher intelligence than average. This may only indicate that those of higher intelligence are better able to articulate the dissonance that they feel.

For some kinds of body dysmorphia (wanting larger or smaller breasts, needing nose or ear size or shape changed) it’s easy to simply make an appointment with a plastic surgeon. (Check your local phone book to see how many medical practitioners there are in your community who would be happy to take your money!) For other types of body dysmorphia help is nearly impossible to find.

The following quotes are transplants from the discuss

JesusA (imported) wrote: Wed Nov 29, 2006 9:58 pm ion of BIID (Body Integrity Identity Disorder) on the thread Is Kimmel the best way to go? (http://www.eunuch.org/vbulletin/showthr ... 385&page=9), posts # 133 and 134

I don't have any problem whatever with requiring a reasonable amount of evaluation and review prior to undergoing an elective castration, especially if at some point we expect to bring more mainstream GPs, urologists, and surgeons on board. This would help to eliminate fetishists, people who are unstable and unable to make such decisions soundly, and so on. It is already a general requirment to have some form of review, under the Benjamin Standards, should a pre-transexual woman desire castration as a part of the process, at least with mainstream practitioners.

Relative to an issue of costmetics or aesthetics as a reason for castration, in my opinion this is a completely valid reason. Please do some research on the topic of BIID (Body Integrity Identity Disorder), increasingly considered in the same vein as issues such as gender dysphoria, and one may well take a new approach in that realm. I would hope that eventually such considerations as a gender dysphoria, in the vein of Male-to-Eunuch gender identity, could be "mainstreamed," even under aegis of something like the Benjamin Standards.

I guess I don't know anything about BIID. Are we talking about folks who want arms and legs amputated? if so I have to be honest I think this is twilight zone stuff. I guess the Cosmetics I was thinking of are at least the type I was thinking about are a man with very small testicles that simply wanted new ones of a healthy size installed. *Like a boob job for men.

Elective Castrations in general is an interesting question. Again the question has to be why (I think) I didn't talk much about men who have out of control sex drive and want to molest children (or that type of thing) and want a way to remain a part of society. Would a typical doctor help this type of person? Frankly I hope so! And I don't say it out of meaness or one seeking revenge but just as a guy who has kids. And as I've had low T and didn't have interest in anything sexual I would tend to think that would work. Or not?

If a clergy member who had taken vows of celebacy wanted it to help him not be so wired sexually would that be ok? I'm not of that faith but I'm not sure I would want to be the one to tell him no. *Nor would I want to be the one to do the surgery but... Good question to ponder.

Quite frankly, your notions and ideas, at least in part. are exactly what we are struggling AGAINST here. We are however veering way off topic, and we need to take this to another thread. I will start one later after I get back home, if someone else doesn't start one first. Meanwhile lets get this thread back on topic.

Discussion:

mrt = I guess I don't know anything about BIID. Are we talking about folks who want arms and legs amputated? if so I have to be honest I think this is twilight zone stuff.

K = Yes, we are talking about exactly “those” people, except that they also very definitely include a significant number of people found on this board. Is gender dysphoria and transexualism also twilight zone stuff? Are the crooked nose or small boobs that one wants fixed twilight zone, as well? They fit here, too, in a smaller way than castration, or extremity amputation, but still fit under the rubric of a body dysmorphia, just the same as a dysmorphic desire for castration.

mrt = I guess the Cosmetics I was thinking of are at least the type I was thinking about are a man with very small testicles that simply wanted new ones of a healthy size installed. *Like a boob job for men.

K = See my previous paragraph. How is the man who wants bigger balls any different than the guy who doesn’t want any? Besides the guy wanting bigger balls would probably have to get the originals removed in order to implant larger prosthetics – full circle, eh?

mrt = Elective Castrations in general is an interesting question. Again the question has to be why (I think). I didn't talk much about men who have out of control sex drive and want to molest children (or that type of thing) and want a way to remain a part of society.

K = First of all, “out of control” sex drive does NOT equate with wanting to molest children. Molesting children is extremely rarely involved of sex drive. What most people speak of here as an out of control sex drive more often, I believe, involves compulsive sexual behavior heavily reinforced by highly gratifying orgasm (a wonderful behavior modification reinforcement!). This may involve extremes of masturbation, or incessant, obsessive thinking/daydreaming of sex, etc. My own suspicion is that many who describe this as an issue, may also be obsessed or compulsive about the notion of being castrated. Separating out any compulsive behavior in response to a reinforced fantasy is essential, and is not involved in the same area as BIID.

mrt = Would a typical doctor help this type of person? Frankly I hope so! And I don't say it out of meaness or one seeking revenge but just as a guy who has kids.

K = One *might* find a “typical” doctor who would cut a confirmed / convicted child molester, but most would not as a violation of the Hippocratic oath, as well as other concerns, including legal. Castration of a child molester might be a gratifying vengeance, albeit only temporarily, and it certainly wouldn’t stop him / her. It certainly is proven not to be an effective "treatment" or deterent to further offending. Beyond that, I would highly doubt that in our current state, many doctors would be even interested in discussing castration as a response to excessive libido.

mrt = If a clergy member who had taken vows of celibacy wanted it to help him not be so wired sexually would that be ok? I'm not of that faith but I'm not sure I would want to be the one to tell him no.

K = I am no longer a catholic, notwithstanding my involvement in the nunnery. As a former seminarian (thankfully, I wised up before too long), I can speak to a bit of this in any case. No, I don’t think it would be OK for a priest to do this as a response to his sexual urges, and expect to be a functional and effective priest of that church. Further, I would easily see the church responding to such a situation with great harshness (especially in light of recent concerns in the church), as well as with forced psychiatric treatment. Should such a priest decide to leave his calling (he got a busy signal or such), that is an entirely different matter, at least in my own sensibilities. Perhaps I am off base, but I think that religion is a separate issue, and one that unfortunately tends to color a lot thinking (or lack thereof).

When referring to the BIID, and GID, I relate. In many wayz. If I could remove a lot of things from my body I would, not necessarily remove, but reduce. I wish I had a smaller nose. I don’t always like being so tall, and have found myself contemplating a leg reduction. Im really thin yet feel uncomfortable with the way my skin sits, and may want to have that tightened. I dislike my large ears, and toes. I wish to remove my Adams apple. I think of all the things my body is, and everything it’s not to me. It’s hard not to get caught up in self-disgust. I shouldn’t dissect my body so analytically, instead I should be concentrating on my strong points, not the short comings.

When you feel one way, and no one challenges that, its easy to let those feelings take over, and consume your life.

When others see something so lovely, I see 7 things unattractive with it. To me I must encourage expectance, not deception.

I am thankful for the fact that I can see the faults with these ideas. No one should live such a self-hatred run life. I do see the reason for living and loving, and try to embrace them. I think what I am trying to say is that, we all have the power to over come our greatest fears, and felt failures.

z

Eunuchist’s post here was an excellent discussion of castration for sex offenders. Unfortunately, it was off topic for this thread. I have instead pasted it as post #6 on the thread Castration in Germany

JesusA (imported) wrote: Wed Nov 29, 2006 9:58 pm (http://www.eunuch.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=

8762) which began as a discussion of one of the articles that Eunuchist cited. It is the best such article that I have found to date.

Please continue the discussion in its new location.

Thanks for your comments Eunuchist. This thread is Not about sex offenders. It is about BIID, and will stay there. I would suggest starting another thread with that topic if you'd like to start up another shit storm, many of which have been rehashed here dozens of times in past. Thanks.

kristoff wrote: Wed Nov 29, 2006 10:22 pm mrt = I guess I don't know anything about BIID. Are we talking about folks who want arms and legs amputated? if so I have to be honest I think this is twilight zone stuff.

K = Yes, we are talking about exactly “those” people, except that they also very definitely include a significant number of people found on this board. Is gender dysphoria and transexualism also twilight zone stuff? Are the crooked nose or small boobs that one wants fixed twilight zone, as well? They fit here, too, in a smaller way than castration, or extremity amputation, but still fit under the rubric of a body dysmorphia, just the same as a dysmorphic desire for castration.

MrT This is all personal opinions but you asked and my answer is that transexualim is not twilight zone stuff. I think I made that clear by saying that while it might not be mainstream now (Society - not me) I don't think its as weird. Exactly what I found twilight zone were the people

kristoff wrote: Wed Nov 29, 2006 10:22 pm who want arms and legs amputated.

mrt = I guess the Cosmetics I was thinking of are at least the type I was thinking about are a man with very small testicles that simply wanted new ones of a healthy size installed. *Like a boob job for men.

K = See my previous paragraph. How is the man who wants bigger balls any different than the guy who doesn’t want any? Besides the guy wanting bigger balls would probably have to get the originals removed in order to implant larger prosthetics

– full circle, eh?

MrT Yes, I understand and I have no qualms about a man who wants his old ones out to put in new ones. Or even one who wants just the old ones out. I don't claim to understand a desire to be "sexless" for want of a better word. Perhapes my own problems with hormones gives me a slanted viewpoint. I've had them, lost them, got them back and think that life with healthy levels of male hormones is great. That said I also understand people who are transexual for example that need healthy levels of different hormones to feel right. In only a very abstract way can I grasp the desire to be without them. I'll also admit that the younger the person wanting this the less I agree with their motives. Children no way, young men (Please consider the permanant nature of what you do) and so on.

kristoff wrote: Wed Nov 29, 2006 10:22 pm mrt = Elective Castrations in general is an interesting question. Again the question has to be why (I think). I didn't talk much about men who have out of control sex drive and want to molest children (or that type of thing) and want a way to remain a part of society.

K = First of all,

“out of control”

kristoff wrote: Wed Nov 29, 2006 10:22 pm sex drive does NOT equate with wanting to molest children. Molesting children is extremely rarely involved of sex drive. What most people speak of here as an out of control sex drive more often, I believe, involves compulsive sexual behavior heavily reinforced by highly gratifying orgasm (a wonderful behavior modification reinforcement!). This may involve extremes of masturbation, or incessant, obsessive thinking/daydreaming of sex, etc. My own suspicion is that many who describe this as an issue, may also be obsessed or compulsive about the notion of being castrated. Separating out any compulsive behavior in response to a reinforced fantasy is essential, and is not involved in the same area as BIID.

MrT ok, maybe I said this wrong. How about a guy who has a normal sex drive but is only interested in raping 8 year old boys? I suggest that out of control in my statement is this... Anyone who has sex with small kids is out of control.

kristoff wrote: Wed Nov 29, 2006 10:22 pm mrt = Would a typical doctor help this type of person? Frankly I hope so! And I don't say it out of meaness or one seeking revenge but just as a guy who has kids.

K = One *might* find a “typical” doctor who would cut a confirmed / convicted child molester, but most would not as a violation of the Hippocratic oath, as well as other concerns, including legal. Castration of a child molester might be a gratifying vengeance, albeit only temporarily, and it certainly wouldn’t stop him / her. It certainly is proven not to be an effective "treatment" or deterent to further offending. Beyond that, I would highly doubt that in our current state, many doctors would be even interested in discussing castration as a response to excessive libido.

MrT I am not confronting you but cite your sources. How many men who have been castrated surgicaly rape kids again? Numbers! How many that have been surgicaly castrated do not? I can only go on my own experiences. With low T I had zero interest in any form of sex. Maybe I'm alone in that? I don't think so.

kristoff wrote: Wed Nov 29, 2006 10:22 pm mrt = If a clergy member who had taken vows of celibacy wanted it to help him not be so wired sexually would that be ok? I'm not of that faith but I'm not sure I would want to be the one to tell him no.

K = I am no longer a catholic, notwithstanding my involvement in the nunnery. As a former seminarian (thankfully, I wised up before too long), I can speak to a bit of this in any case. No, I don’t think it would be OK for a priest to do this as a response to his sexual urges, and expect to be a functional and effective priest of that church. Further, I would easily see the church responding to such a situation with great harshness (especially in light of recent concerns in the church), as well as with forced psychiatric treatment. Should such a priest decide to leave his calling (he got a busy signal or such), that is an entirely different matter, at least in my own sensibilities. Perhaps I am off base, but I think that religion is a separate issue, and one that unfortunately tends to color a lot thinking (or lack thereof).

very thoughtful

Thank you Jesus for starting this thread. I see a connection and wanted to say thank you and sorry for how negative my last post sounded. Things are a lot brighter today

It's very interesting that the words we choose to describe a phenomenon guide our thoughts as to how it should be viewed, or dealt with. I wonder if this is a more complex, social implementation of the "glass half empty/half full" paradox? Do we praise social diversity or decry social deviancy?

Could it be that it is simply a matter of personal opinion? Of socio/polic/religio/ideological view? As Jesus says, by labelling something a "disorder" (i.e. BIID), suggests that something is "wrong" and needs to be "cured". And implies that something is "wrong" because it does not comform to some kind of predetermined (expected?) normality. That we must all aspire to be the same, uniform. And the reality in nature reminds us this is not the case.

Some species die out, some mutate and thus a new species is born. Perhaps diversity is both a strength and a weakness? Both in nature and society.

But alas, as we start talking Darwinisms we enter into the religio/ideological region that not everyone will agree with. Probably beyond the scope of this thread

Thank you Jesus for starting this thread It's making me think about something very strange.

Last night I was wishing I was 'normal'. Why?

JesusA (imported) wrote: Wed Nov 29, 2006 9:58 pm These individuals then are able to function fully in society. They may have no further problems and do not graduate to wanting yet another body part removed. They may well have adjustment issues to manage in this area, but as far as medicine or psychiatry is concerned, they are CURED.

I have to object to your use of “may” here; which, grammatically, is hinting that the probability for additional procedures for persons with BIID is low.

At least in the case of cosmetic augmentation I know that there is frequently incidence of additional procedures. A woman goes in for breast augmentation and then after recovery decides she wants to get a face lift or cheek implants or a dozen other things she feels she needs done to her body. Some have described this as an addiction, similar to that experienced by persons that elect to be heavily modified by piercings and tattoos.

Do you have any readily available information supporting that this does not occur frequently in persons seeking elective amputation? Alas the nature of our medical dogma is not, I feel, likely to yield much data here.

After reading this forum I feel that the discussion of persons seeking eunuch and transsexual reassignments should be clearly separated from persons seeking nullification and other body modification/augmentation. In my mind eunuchs and transsexuals fall under "gender dysphoria"; which is, I believe, the best term that does not imply an underlying mental illness. For nullification I do believe such an implication is not entirely inappropriate from what I've read from the seekers here, so the BIID and GID classifications are, in my opinion, apt for these cases.

Since

kristoff wrote: Wed Nov 29, 2006 10:22 pm Body Integrity Identity Disorder

involves people wanting to do a lot of different things to their bodies, is it considered a substantial possibility that the disorder (Maybe it should be called an anomaly) is actually a complex of different conditions which are related only in that they involve individuals seeking amputation of a body part? Something which, to the average person, appears that drastic might be the result of one rather extreme mental circumstance in all cases, but since different parts of the body and different degrees of removal are involved, it seems conceivable that a variety of influences are at work. I also have to wonder, having seen some really striking tattoos on BME, whether certain individuals' desires for various types of tattoos might have a relationship to that kind of identity disorder.

And you have to figure that some of the people who might outwardly appear normal, apart from their desire to have some body part amputated, might actually be clinically insane--or perhaps there is a spectrum of sanity levels in the people involved. That wouldn't be surprising, since it seems to be the case in other types of disorders.

Which raises the question of whether the presence of both disorders, or anomalies, simultaneously, Gender Identity and Body Integrity Identity, characterizes some archive members. Also, are there historical records that show a persistent tendency in small numbers of people to want amputation of parts--or, as Post #1 suggests, is this perhaps a result of environmental factors which have only been present in modern times? As I suppose many of you know, cancer rates today are thought to be many times as great, for certain types of cancer, as the rates were prior to the industrial revolution some two and a half centuries ago.