After reading accounts of the bodies of Iraqis being found, with indications that torturers had drilled numerous holes in the victims, I started to think about the attitudes which many Islamic individuals seem to show. It's troubling to read or hear about such things. I have to wonder if the religion lacks a concept of the basic dignity of people, simply as human beings, rather than as followers of Islam, or of a specific Islamic sect. I realize that the torturers are not representative of Islam as a whole, and there have been, and will be, sadists who adhere to other religions. But it does seem, at times, that a majority of moslems show a lack of respect for people who aren't Islamic. It also seems sometimes that the European and American idea, that everyone has a responsibility to provide for the welfare of the human race as a whole, is not usually present in the religions or cultures of countries without the European heritage.

Which raises the question, of whether Islam has a real golden rule. I'm not sure about this, but I think the European concept of the golden rule--do unto others as you would have them do unto you--comes from the "sermon on the mount" in the New Testament. My general view of religions is, that the important consideration about them, is that they do as little harm to people's well being as possible. But propagation of the "golden rule" does seem to have a positive effect.

Anyway, the quote from the Islamic Hadith in the third to last paragraph on this webpage, is the analogue to the golden rule. Apparently, there is no specific statement of anything like the golden rule in the Koran. But perhaps if the word "brother" in the Hadith passage were interpreted to refer to any human being, rather than to Islamic believers, it would make a difference in the attitudes of Moslems.

http://www.faithfreedom.org/debates/YaminZakariap8.htm

A further question might be, are there positive attributes in Islam that are lacking in other religions?

You bring up a very interesting view. I like it, I think your on to something.

River

Beau Geste (imported) wrote: Sun Nov 05, 2006 2:44 pm A further question might be, are there positive attributes in Islam that are lacking in other religions?

Islam has several positive attributes, not the least of which is their Five Pillars of Faith:

1. Iman - The declaration that there is only one god which said in Arabic is "il ihala illa huwa." So the Muslims, like Christians, believe in just one god.

2. Salah - A dedicated Muslim must pray five times a day at dawn, mid-day, late afternoon, sunset and nightfall. I doubt if most Christians would set aside that many times for prayer.

3. Zakah - Giving alms to the poor. Muslims believe all wealth is owned by god and we humans are only the caretakers and thus must share god's possessions with those less fortunate. Theoritically, a faithful Muslim is supposed to give away 1/40th of his wealth to the poor.

4. Sawm - Every year during the month of Ramadan, all Muslims must fast from dawn till sunset..and that means no food, drink or sexual relations with spouses. Exceptions are made for the sick, elderly, those on a long journey, etc. They believe cutting oneself from creature comforts, even for a short time, allows one to focus on their life better.

5. Hajj - Once in his or her lifetime, a Muslim must go on the pilgrimage to Mecca, the holiest place in Islam. This usually done in summer. Again, exceptions are granted to the poor or the physically ill.

MacTheWolf (imported) wrote: Mon Nov 06, 2006 12:19 am Islam has several positive attributes, not the least of which is their Five Pillars of Faith:

1. Iman - The declaration that there is only one god which said in Arabic is "il ihala illa huwa." So the Muslims, like Christians, believe in just one god.

2. Salah - A dedicated Muslim must pray five times a day at dawn, mid-day, late afternoon, sunset and nightfall. I doubt if most Christians would set aside that many times for prayer.

3. Zakah - Giving alms to the poor. Muslims believe all wealth is owned by god and we humans are only the caretakers and thus must share god's possessions with those less fortunate. Theoritically, a faithful Muslim is supposed to give away 1/40th of his wealth to the poor.

4. Sawm - Every year during the month of Ramadan, all Muslims must fast from dawn till sunset..and that means no food, drink or sexual relations with spouses. Exceptions are made for the sick, elderly, those on a long journey, etc. They believe cutting oneself from creature comforts, even for a short time, allows one to focus on their life better.

5. Hajj - Once in his or her lifetime, a Muslim must go on the pilgrimage to Mecca, the holiest place in Islam. This usually done in summer. Again, exceptions are granted to the poor or the physically ill.

Thank you.

MacTheWolf (imported) wrote: Mon Nov 06, 2006 12:19 am Islam has several positive attributes, not the least of which is their Five Pillars of Faith:

1. Iman - The declaration that there is only one god which said in Arabic is "il ihala illa huwa." So the Muslims, like Christians, believe in just one god.

2. Salah - A dedicated Muslim must pray five times a day at dawn, mid-day, late afternoon, sunset and nightfall. I doubt if most Christians would set aside that many times for prayer.

3. Zakah - Giving alms to the poor. Muslims believe all wealth is owned by god and we humans are only the caretakers and thus must share god's possessions with those less fortunate. Theoritically, a faithful Muslim is supposed to give away 1/40th of his wealth to the poor.

4. Sawm - Every year during the month of Ramadan, all Muslims must fast from dawn till sunset..and that means no food, drink or sexual relations with spouses. Exceptions are made for the sick, elderly, those on a long journey, etc. They believe cutting oneself from creature comforts, even for a short time, allows one to focus on their life better.

5. Hajj - Once in his or her lifetime, a Muslim must go on the pilgrimage to Mecca, the holiest place in Islam. This usually done in summer. Again, exceptions are granted to the poor or the physically ill.

I have to stir the pot some. That's just me.

Point one is well taken.

Point 2, What one does in prayer is only known by the person doing the praying and God. What one is suppose to do and what one does is often two different things. A Christian is suppose to always be in an attitude of prayer. We are not to approach God with prayers that have no profound meaning just to be praying. Many Christians all through the day may say little prayers that are appropriate at the time. Thank you God for my life. Can you imagine being God and being bombarded by 5 billion marathon prayers five times a day. Good thing we are not all Islam.

Point 3, Christians are suppose to give 1/10th of their gross income to the sick and poor, widowed and orphaned. That doesn't mean the do it any more than in Islam. Again that's between the person and God.

Point 4, Fasting is nothing new . Christians that wish to be closer to God also fast. Jesus told his disciples that it takes much fasting and prayer to cast out demons and the stronger they are, the more it takes. It also takes a lot of faith. Don't try this at home .

Point 5, I go through Mecca every time I go to work. It's a little town just east of Indio, Ca. During the summer it's so hot there, I say that Mecca isn't Hell, but you can see it from there . Any religion that puts unrealistic demands on a person is a cult. I would like to see Jerusalem, but I don't think it will happen in my life time. Alms for the poor. Also as Christians we should, but are not told to, go to church every week. How many do that? Again that is between you and God. Fellowship is good for the soul though.

On another note, Muslims seem to not have a lot of respect for human life. I think they like their camels better. They will shoot one of their own people to kill an infidel standing behind him. There have always been religious wars, in all faiths. I think Muslims are a little extreme though. I guess they figure they're just speeding their own to Heaven. Steve

Islam began as a way to unify various warring tribes in order to conquer territory. Mohammed was a military leader first. So Islam is a military government based religion that teaches total control over the population of followers.

The Quran says that the people of "The Book", i.e. Jews and Christians, are to be respected, but then goes on to say that you should kill anyone who does not follow Islam. I am not aware of any "Golden Rule" or equivalent in the Quran.

Many religious leaders preach that their particular version of Judaism, Christianity, Islam, or whatever, is the ONLY TRUE WAY and that all other persons are to be killed or enslaved or abused. Witness the past troubles in Ireland as an example of this. Religion has been a factor in almost all major wars. It almost makes you wonder if having religion is a good thing for mankind....

Some of the followers of Islam use it as an excuse for terrorism and torture. It is simple human nature to deflect blame for bad actions and to look for justification for hooliganism and worse. Very few Moslems protest this bad behavior - if they do, they become a target of the terrorists too. Witness the mess in Iraq.

I am sure that any Moslem reading this will be tempted to go to his Imam and get a Fatwah (death order) put on me for saying all this, but since I am not a Moslem, I am already a potential target for terrorist Moslems anyway....

Kangan, I'm with you but I go a bit further.

Islamic law applies only to muslims. If you are not muslim then you have no rights and can expect no compassion or mercy from Islam. Those who are living in Islamic states that are not muslim are, by Islamic law, second class citizens and are heavily penalized (financially and with respect to rights).

Muhammed was a failure until he found some desert bandits that listened to his bullshit relision and he said it was ok to kill others and take their possessions because they weren't muslim. He coveted the wives of some of his followers and they either divorced their wives or were murdered. He changed the rules of the muslim faith when it was expedient.

Another thing, they continue to bitch about the Crusades and claim they were a peaceful people that were attacked by christians. What a crock of bullshit! The Crusades began as a legitimate response to the violent muslim conquest of christians and christian lands.

They take no responsibility and have not advanced science, medicine, art, philosophy, etc., etc., etc., and then blame everything on Israel or the U.S. They are incapable of taking responsibility for their actions and never will. The religion and its followers are in denial and will blissfully remain so because it's easier to blame someone else than to do something to improve their lot.

Islam is a shit religion for a stupid and easily led people. It contributes nothing and keeps the adherents living in a mideval mentality. I am tolerant of religion (even Mormons) but I despise Islam. I shit on Muhammed and wipe my ass with the Koran.

Islamic Imperialism: A History by Efraim Karash, (Yale University Press, 2006).

Gosh, Taylor...

...why don't you tell us how you really feel? (I'd watch that ass-wiping with the Koran, too scratchy... OUCH!)

Mackie, I always thought that THIS (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3036713/) was the I-Man...

The problem with Islam as I see it is that there is no centralized authority and generally the religion is no more than individualized despots, each looking to out-do the other with their particular brand of people control.

Typically, the ones wo seem to rise to prominence in the religion of Islam tend to be awfully angry and more than willing to go to any lengths to control their fellow human.

For this they should be shot on sight as one would do ANY rabid dog.

However, if they would like to be human and quit trying to conquer the world with religion, then maybe they could live among us without being random victims, as I fear they soon will be in Europe. This "political correctness" is a product or Modernism and Progressivism philosophy and in the world in which we live these two philosophies are losing ground very fast.

As I have said, you cannot pet a rabid dog. Your only choice is to kill them before they infect, you, too.

It is too bad that we are still killing each other over religion, but with radical Islam, there is little choice left to us.

I find this colum-thread very informative so thanks to You Eunuchs for bringing me up to date on what Islam and Muslims really are. The problem I see recently is that in my conception of it all, that Islam is not a RELIGION at all but a form of GOVERNMENT to assist each other with additional knowledge and guidance etc. The Mosks are like a Community Center where this process goes on , and Yes their BIBLE or guide book called the KORAN it their CONSTITUTION - the rules they FOLLOW "religiously". Yes things are a mess when their confusion about the tranquility and peace for all becomes a disoriented madness and there are no brakes installed in their Wagon. I do hope that they will "modify" this guide book to include those rules that will save them from distinction and madness. N3RF