10-11-2006 (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15223650/)

This "11" th day of the month is turning out to be not so good...

A-1

A-1 (imported) wrote: Thu Oct 12, 2006 6:42 pm 10-11-2006 (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15223650/)

This "11" th day of the month is turning out to be not so good...

A-1

Why are planes flying that close to Manhattan?

Blaise (imported) wrote: Thu Oct 12, 2006 8:38 pm Why are planes flying that close to Manhattan?

because that's a tour route - down the Hudson River, around the Statue of Liberty and back up the East River.

I first took it in 1963 with a friend. Thousands of small aircraft have done it.

Three things come to mind.

If you die in a car it dosent even make the local 6 pm news.

Unless your well known, but does that really matter?

Yes that was three.

River

Dave (imported) wrote: Fri Oct 13, 2006 4:58 am because that's a tour route - down the Hudson River, around the Statue of Liberty and back up the East River.

I first took it in 1963 with a friend. Thousands of small aircraft have done it.

Yes, I suppose that is right. There are a few very simple rules that a pilot cannot overlook when flying but too often do overlook.

1.) The pilot must fly the airplane. Unbelievably sometimes, they do not. A pilot can easily become distracted.

2.) Planes fly because air passes over the wings at the correct angle and speed. If the pilot slows or changes the angle of the air, the plane stops flying. To get it to fly again you need to point the nose down. That is not something you want to do if the plane is racing toward the ground.

I recall the second time I flew to New York City (36 years ago), our plane was in a holding pattern over the city for several minutes. We circled Manhattana a few times. I enjoyed the splendid view. I still enjoy seeing the city from the air. Heck, I love the place.

Blaise (imported) wrote: Fri Oct 13, 2006 10:17 am Yes, I suppose that is right.

There is no room to dive if you stall your plane in that area. A novice pilot might have been too taken with the view and simply forgot to fly the plane. That is easy to do.

Blaise (imported) wrote: Fri Oct 13, 2006 10:17 am I recall the second time I flew to new York City, our plane was in a holding pattern over the city for several minutes. We circled Manhattana a few times. I enjoyed the splendid view.

The picture that I saw in the news had a fire burning on a tall building with another across the street. If you try to fly a small plane between two tall buildings, the wind currents can get real strange. The buildings act like venturi and can create eddy currents and all sorts of things.

You can get the same sorts of problems flying in the Grand Canyon or any other canyon or in mountainous regions if you fly too low.

It is tricky as hell, if the wind is strong and blowing throught the openings :shakemitk ...

A-1

A-1 (imported) wrote: Fri Oct 13, 2006 11:20 am The picture that I saw in the news had a fire burning on a tall building with another across the street. If you try to fly a small plane between two tall buildings, the wind currents can get real strange. The buildings act like venturi and can create eddy currents and all sorts of things.

You can get the same sorts of problems flying in the Grand Canyon or any other canyon or in mountainous regions if you fly too low.

It is tricky as hell, if the wind is strong and blowing throught the openings :shakemitk ...

A-1

Most probably, he did not intend to fly between the buildings. I imagine that he stalled in the turn he apparently was making. That someone can fly low along that narrow corridor amazes me. The corridor leads directly to La Guardia. To avoid illegally entering restricted air space, a pilot has to turn if he flies that route.

Blaise (imported) wrote: Fri Oct 13, 2006 1:24 pm Most probably, he did not intend to fly between the buildings. I imagine that he stalled in the turn he apparently was making. That someone can fly low along that narrow corridor amazes me. The corridor leads directly to La Guardia. A pilot has to turn if he flies that route.

It might be hard to tell if he lost power. There are no flight recorders on those planes and if he lost power he was likely pretty busy right before the fire...

A-1

A-1 (imported) wrote: Fri Oct 13, 2006 3:03 pm It might be hard to tell if he lost power. There are no flight recorders on those planes and if he lost power he was likely pretty busy right before the fire...

A-1

It seems the propeller was moving when the plan hit the apartment. You can lose power simply by how you incline the wing, especially during a turn. He probably did not have any loss of power. He more likely stalled in a turn too tight.

UPDATE" According to The New York Times, Tyler Stanger, Cory Lidle's flight instructor, had flown that route only one time before the accident flight. Apparently, pilots avoid that route because of the need to make a turn to avoid La Guardia.

That does not mean that either Mr. Lidle or Mr. Stranger were incompetent or taking excessive risk. They were in a difficult situation.

One ought not make up what happened, but the pilot might have over corrected to make the turn and stalled. However, we need to see what happened. What might have happened often is not what did happen.

Note: NYT today: "Local pilots with experience traveling through New York City’s busy and tricky airspace said that Mr. Lidle’s plane appeared to have followed the rules when he turned left, but that they knew better alternatives: either pilots get clearance from La Guardia, which would not have been a problem on Wednesday; or just skip the East River altogether and go up the Hudson River; or request permission to turn right and make a U-turn that carries them over a sliver of Queens." SERGE F. KOVALESKI and ALAN FEUER (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference ... ne=nyt-per)

Letter to Editor of NYT 10/13/06:

To the Editor:

Re “Aircraft Traveled a Corridor in the Sky Where Recreational Pilots Fear to Go (http://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/12/nyregion/12how.html)” (news article, Oct. 12):

I’ve been flying in the New York airspace for more than 30 years, and I’ve never heard the words “feared” or “tricky” used to describe any of that airspace. Such words serve only to prejudice the reading public (particularly those who don’t know anything about flying).

A pilot must learn and become familiar with the New York Class B airspace, just as someone who pilots a boat through a channel or inlet needs a map to know the proper depth to avoid running aground.

Most novice pilots are initially introduced to this airspace by flight instructors who are very familiar with the route. Special frequencies are available for pilots to announce their position. This helps tremendously with both helicopters and fixed wing pilots “seeing and avoiding” each other.

This was a tragic accident, but in the more than 30 years since the creation of this airspace, this may be the first accident of its kind.

Ben Rosenberg

Parsippany, N.J., Oct. 12, 2006

Yes it was very sad this fine young man died that way but now i am just waiting for the democrats to blame Bush for this to.