Greek/Roman Practices

[HistoryResearch (imported)]

Hi I've just come upon the EA site while trying to do some internet

research on the Ancient Greeks and Romans. Whilst we all know some

captives/slaves were castrated and there is lots of fiction (which can be pretty horny!) I would like to some pointers to historical texts or known facts - can anyone help? Some questions relate to a few stories I have read here inc. the Byzantine and Tribute series (both very good and latter author obviously an expert historian who may be able to help me).

Are the numbers of boys sought as tribute to be castrated in the

Tribute stories about right historically? If so it was several hundreds/ thousands a year, as I know that in addition, in war, captives were either killed or castrated. Do we have any writers at the time who mention figures?

Similarly, the descriptions in the stories of the procedure sound

authentic in lots of ways (cords, clamps, knives etc) but is the erection and

ejaculation horny fiction or is this an involuntary reaction similar to

prostate massage? Are there accounts of the procedure? I know there is

a castration clamp in the Brit Museum as that was listed in my original

search (alas no pic!).

I know infibulation was common too for slaves. I had thought it was

just a ring thru the foreskin but now read of Roman statues of slaves where

the ring is once thru the shaft behind the glans and again thru shaft at

base so cock bent double knob pointing to body. Was this common does anyone know.

Are there any good books that deal with the subject and period anyone

can recommend?

Finally, not about Romans, but was the story about Gordon's army being

castrated after the battle of Khartoum true and are there

survivor/witness accounts. I know it was the case that in India captive British soldiers were often staked out and circumcised then later released or ransomed.

[Paolo]

I don't have figures on-hand right now, but keep in mind that the stories posted to the FICTION archive are just that - FICTIONAL entertainment. I'm sure someone will come up with your answers before I have time to dig them up. Also, check out the NONFICTION moderated Board here run by Jesus.

[JesusA (imported)]

I have just posted two short pieces on castration in the Eastern Roman Empire on the nonfiction board in response to HistoryResearch's question. I will continue to post additional short pieces as my time and research allow. I have a short one on castration techniques in the Assyrian Empire that will probably be my next post.

The new posts are in the thread Byzantine Castration (http://www.eunuch.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=49630).

[philorchites (imported)]

While doing research on eunuchs and eunuchry, I found the most detailed and informative material in an encyclopedia of Islam at the library of a local college. I can't remember the precise name of the encyclopedia, but I think the one I have given will get you there if there is something like in a library near you.

Incidently, the Islamic scholars insist that the primary suppliers of eunuchs to the Islamic world of the Middle Ages were European Christians in communities along the fringe or border areas.

[JesusA (imported)]

Philorchites is partially right. The main sources of slaves for the Moslem world varied over time. In the earlier years, Slavs from eastern Europe were both preferred and available in the greatest numbers. Major castration centers for these slaves were located in Verdun (modern France), Cordoba (Spain) and Venice. The slave raids were carried out by western European Christians agains the, still pagan, Slavic peoples and the slaves were first transported west. Many were used in the Christian lands and only some were sold to Moslem traders. Verdun seems to be the place where the largest number of boys were castrated during this period.

Later, more of the slaves began coming from the Turkic peoples of central Asia and there were important castration centers in Tabriz (modern Iran) and Nukus (modern Uzbekistan).

As Christain Europe became less willing to sell slaves to the Moslem world (and as the Slavs gradually converted to Christianity), and as the Turkic peoples also converted to Islam and could not legally be enslaved, the search for slaves and for eunuchs turned toward Subsaharan Africa.

Slaves had long been taken from Africa, but the trade intensified and the total number of Black slaves taken to the Moslem lands of North Africa and the Middle East probably exceeded the number carried across the Atlantic to the New World. Their descendants can be seen today, but there are relatively few of them. Abortion and infanticide was used to reduce the number of infants that needed to be cared for and males were either castrated or forced to remain mostly celibate.

[Pueros]

My ‘Tribute’ is actually based on more historical research, some original, particularly in relation to the real character of Dios, than any of my other shorter episodic stories. I happened to be doing some professional work on the period , discovered certain unique data and decided to share some of the results with this board in the form of ‘faction’ . Given this background, I have to confess that I was disappointed by the lack of previous comment about the tale .

The essential storyline is factually based on information passed down to us, often via Roman scholars, from ancient writers, some famous, such as the ‘father of history’ Herodotus, and some very obscure. However, most of these were Greek and therefore biased against their main enemy of the time, the Persians, and they largely recorded hearsay rather than the evidence of their own eyes. It is therefore probable that some of their original descriptions were exaggerated to shed the worst possible light on their foe or simply after being passed verbally from person to person and generation to generation.

Consequently, I attempted in my 'factional' story to compensate for such distortions in order to try to provide a fairer and more realistic perspective of Persian actions and motives as far as the likes of war, conquest and castration were concerned. The greater Archaemenian Kings were actually rather enlightened for their era and deserve a far better reputation than they currently possess because of the Greek influence on our view of the period.

My ongoing ‘Enemies’ is a sequel to ‘Tribute’.

PUEROS

[John W. (imported)]

In the Byzantine or Eastern Roman Empire, were castrati ever produced in great numbers to sing in churches, or at least in the Hagia Sophia Cathedral in Constantinople (which fell to the Ottoman Turks in 1453, after the Empire had become hopelessly corrupt), similarly to castrati in Italy and especially the Vatican in the late 16th to early 20th centuries? If so, are the names of any of the Byzantine singers known?

In Angus Heriot's "The Castrati In Opera" (1956), page 10, there is a reference to a castrato named Manuel arriving in Smolensk in Russia in 1137, and singing there - he may have come from Constantinople. The same page also says that eunuchs were "constantly in use" at Constantinople, noting one reference, by Theodore Balsamone, tutor to Emperor Constantine Porphyrogenitus, in a defense of eunuchs, in which he wrote of them being "habitually employed as singers". In the church music of Constantinople, "soloists were censured for interpolating coloratura into their music" according to Heriot, ibid., which sounds like the work of castrati, barring any women having been used.

BTW I am a soprano castrato myself.

[wilmar (imported)]

If you send a request to me at <[email protected]> I will send you my translation of the Story of Combabus which is a short extract that deals with castration in ancient times

[strassenbahn (imported)]

An important group of eunuchs in the Ancient World -- and a group perhaps particularly relevant to EA members because voluntary castration was involved -- were the galli, the eunuch priests of the Anatolian goddess Cybele, whose worship was introduced to Rome in 204-205 B.C., where she was also known as the Magna Mater (Great Mother). In mythology, her lover Attis castrates himself, and the self-castration of the galli (who were always non-Romans by law) reflects this. The act itself was carried out in connection with ecstatic dancing, which was a key part of the goddess's ritual. While Cybele became an important goddess in the Roman pantheon, the galli themselves tended to be the object of some distain, both as eunuchs (most eunuchs in the Ancient World were slaves), and because they were itinerant beggars, often seen as performing their rites as much to get a handout as from religious motivation. However, given the decisive step of voluntary self-castration (apparently carried out with potshards),the religous element must have been sincere. As The Oxford Classical Dictionary says in its article Eunuchs "As a whole the institution created a class of pure servants of a god. Its significance derives from a double contrast, with the involuntary castration of children for court use and the normal obligation to marry. The adult self-castrate expressed in his body both world rejection and superiority. [...] Cross-dressing (especially earrings) and face-whitening advertised the anomalous state."

Castration fans may enjoy getting a copy of the works of the great Roman poet Catullus and reading his Poem No. 63, which describes Attis's self-castration.

[wannabe_alto (imported)]

I, for one, was impressed with the research