Hi all,

I'm new to the list, so I thought I should start with a quick introduction. My name is Rowan and I've been taking Estradiol and Spironolactone for about 4 months as well as some herbal supplements. The spiro serves a dual purpose for me as both an anti-androgen and a blood pressure treatment. Unfortunately, I have no health insurance, so I am not currently under a doctor's supervision.

My question is this: Is spiro an effective enough anti-androgen to achieve chemical castration or should I look into switching to/adding Androcur? I'm not looking for medical advice....just maybe some practical experience. Thanks!

R~

Are you using these medications for castration only or are you seeking feminization too? And at what dose are you taking?

For me, Spironolactone and Estrogens (Estradiol) are a good combination for effective feminization. Spiro has also controlled my hypertension. I believe it is much safer than Androcur for long term use (years). I was at castration levels while on both medications before surgery. I am, however, under a doctors care.

One thing I do need to mention is that Spironolactone is a potassium sparing diuretic. You must watch you intake of foods high in potassium and drink plenty of fluids.

Hi Christina!

I'm definitely going for feminization although I'm not seeking full transition. I'm going for a very androgynous look. I'm currently taking 200mg of Spiro and I've just recently dropped my Estrofem from 6 to 4mg. I'm also taking herbal supplements, 6 Evanesce and 4 Feminol. You may or may not be familiar with them. I'm aware of the potassium sparing properties of Spiro and am careful to avoid high K foods.

R~

Of the prescription drugs you mention that should be an adaquate dose. Although as they say your milage may vary. I would be very careful of mixing the herbs with the prescription drugs. And yes I have heard of those herbs. They would have been my prefered choice had I not found a doctor to help me.

Being post-op (castration only) I am still on the same dose of medication I was pre-op. My doctor feels the spiro had some added benifits for breast growth as well as controling the hypertension. I take a daily dose of 200mg spiro, 8mg of estradiol and a bi-weekly injection of 10mg/ml delestrogen. I think the results speak for themself, don't you? But I have also been on them for a few years.

Supposedly, research was done on the herbs and they're very liver-friendly. That would be my main concern with them and I've been assured it's not a problem. My other concern is that taking the herbs in conjunction with the drugs is unnecessary overkill and does not give any added benefit. So I'm not sure if I'm just wasting my money or not.

I'm more than pleased with the results I've had in just this short period of time. I can only imagine how things will progress over the next few years and I'm really looking forward to it. My other question for you was regarding smoking. I saw in one of your old posts that you had been given Welbutrin to quit smoking. I'm currently a smoker (about a pack a day of ultra-lights) and besides the known common adverse health affects of cigarettes, I've also heard they tend to block estrogen receptors. Were you able to quit and if so, did you notice any changes? Any insight would be appreciated.

It's hard to say if taking herbs along with prescription drugs will cause any unwanted effects. I think if it works for you, then go for it. In time you will have those answers.

I have also read that smoking can block the estrogen receptors. And no, I wasn't able to quit using Welbutrin (I'm still at about 2 packs of ultra lights per day). It's probably that factor which has caused me to have a slow responce to the estrogens. Nonetheless, I still have responded well to estrogens over the years. You may be happy to hear that it takes on average about 7 to 10 years for your body to completely change from cross induced hormones. It's about the same length of time it takes to go through normal puberty.

One thing I forgot to mention in my previous post was that I take a daily 325mg of coated aspirin (Ecotrin). It might be a good idea since you are also a smoker. The 81mg coated aspirin may be a good alternative since you smoke less than I do, but make sure it is a coated aspirin. Long term use of plain aspirin could give you stomach problems and anything higher than 325mg (at least for me) causes me to bruise easily.

Yep, I'm also taking a 325mg aspirin every day. I suppose I could use a lower dose, but I didn't even really think about it when I bought them. I was just thinking, "Hmm..I should take aspirin"..hehe. I'm taking 2600mg of Evening Primrose Oil also which is supposed to keep the blood vessels supple and help prevent clotting. I suppose it can't hurt....

But hey, thanks for all your help! I really appreciate it.

Rowan~

Rowan (imported) wrote: Tue Jun 14, 2005 4:31 pm Hi Christina!

I'm definitely going for feminization although I'm not seeking full transition. I'm going for a very androgynous look. I'm currently taking 200mg of Spiro and I've just recently dropped my Estrofem from 6 to 4mg. I'm also taking herbal supplements,

R~Hello, Rowan. Welcome.

Herbals containing phytoestrogens (isoflavones) do very little for us. They are estrogenic, but not very useful for intense feminization. First, they are very weak:

http://www.soytoy.com/science.html

Isoflavones are very similar in structure to estrogen and are able to bind estrogen receptors, though they exhibit only a weak estrogenic effect: only one-hundredth to one-thousandth that of estradiol.

Why bind your receptors with phytoestrogens when you can have a real drug that is up to a thousand times stronger? They prevent real estrogens from working and thus act as an anti-estrogen.

http://www.consumerlab.com/results/phytoestrogens2.asp

Ironically, isoflavones also have an anti-estrogen effect when the body's estrogen levels are high because isoflavones and estrogen compete for estrogen receptors.

Further, when they do work, they typically stimulate cellular activity in estrogen receptors that are not that responsible for feminization.

http://www.prous.com/journals/mf/200224 ... 40051.html

The capacity of isoflavones to bind to estrogenic receptors leads to a link-receptor complex that is functionally equivalent to the one formed by 17b-estradiol, which in turn causes a transcriptional activity increase. The response obtained with isoflavone is not as intense as the one with 17b-estradiol due to isoflavones having less affinity to estrogenic receptors. This varies depending on the estrogenic receptor under consideration (a and b) with specific tissue location. The isoflavones affinity is notable in the case of type b receptors and very low towards type a receptors. It is therefore supposed that its actions are more marked in those target organs and tissues in which b receptors predominate (central nervous system, bone, vascular wall and urogenital tract).

Just my two pence. I wish you the best.

Hugs,

Kelly

Hi Kelly

Thanks so much for sharing those links! Particularly, the journal reference. That's the kind of stuff I geek over. That definitely gives me some insight as to how these things are processed and, based on that, I think I'll drop the herbs and see what happens. I may take my Estradiol back up to 6mg though. Now if I could just quit smoking...*sigh*

Anyway, thanks again! That was very helpful. *hug*

R~

Rowan (imported) wrote: Thu Jun 16, 2005 4:30 am Hi Kelly

Thanks so much for sharing those links! Particularly, the journal reference. That's the kind of stuff I geek over. That definitely gives me some insight as to how these things are processed and, based on that, I think I'll drop the herbs and see what happens. I may take my Estradiol back up to 6mg though.

That sounds good. Most TS women feminize with real hormones, and I would be wary of herbals, especially since you do not need them.

Rowan (imported) wrote: Thu Jun 16, 2005 4:30 am Now if I could just quit smoking...*sigh*

Anyway, thanks again! That was very helpful. *hug*

R~

Hugs back!

I hope that I do not bore you with more reports.

Besides the health reasons against smoking, people ask if smoking can reduce feminization. Yes, it can. It can reduce your blood levels of estrogens, even reducing the serum values by half:

http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/abstract/313/16/973

The results showed reduced levels of both estrogens in smokers as compared with nonsmokers in all three dosage groups. This reduction was most pronounced in the high-dose group (4 mg of estradiol), in which the serum levels of estrone and estradiol in smokers were only 50 per cent of those in nonsmokers (P less than 0.001 and less than 0.05, respectively). In contrast, no significant changes could be demonstrated in the corresponding placebo groups. Moreover, it was possible to demonstrate significant inverse correlations between the number of cigarettes smoked daily and the changes in the levels of serum estrone and estradiol, respectively.

How does it do that? It metabolizes the estrogens into very weak estrogens that are basically waste material, which in turn are excreted:

http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/abs ... 15/21/1305

Increased 2-hydroxylation of estradiol as a possible mechanism for the anti-estrogenic effect of cigarette smoking

We examined the hypothesis that cigarette smoking in women induces an increase in estradiol 2-hydroxylation. This irreversible metabolic pathway yields 2-hydroxyestrogens, which possess minimal peripheral estrogenic activity and are cleared rapidly from the circulation. We found a significant increase in estradiol 2-hydroxylation in premenopausal women who smoked at least 15 cigarettes per day. The extent of the reaction (mean +/- SEM) was 53.6 +/- 2.2 percent among 14 smokers and 35.1 +/- 1.8 percent among 13 nonsmoking controls--an increase of approximately 50 percent (P less than 0.001). The extent of 2-hydroxylation among five smokers did not vary during the follicular and luteal phases of their menstrual cycles. In addition, urinary excretion of estriol relative to estrone was significantly decreased among smokers (P less than 0.01), providing evidence that the smoking-induced increase in 2-hydroxylation diminishes the competing metabolic pathway involving 16 alpha-hydroxylation. This study demonstrates that smoking exerts a powerful inducing effect on the 2-hydroxylation pathway of estradiol metabolism, which is likely to lead to decreased bioavailability at estrogen target tissues.

So, yes, it would appear that smoking can reduce feminization for TS women on HRT.

I also stopped smoking in order to utilize estrogen.

Hugs,

Kelly