Castrating Boys And Adolescents

I hope this topic can be discussed rationally; I think that too many people don't even want the discussion to occur at all. That is unfortunate, as without opening up the discussion, then all boys are destined to pass through puberty.

Jesus:

"To test the boundary between fantasy and reality on the Archive I posted an ethical dilemma at one point. I wrote up a scenario questioning the ethics of castrating a child (when HE wanted it) and asked for comment. The discussion was VERY heated, and not a single respondent thought that, other than for dire medical reasons, any child should ever be castrated. There even evolved a discussion of the minimum age of consent with several people pushing for 25 or higher for such an irreversible decision."

Well, I'm now the first one taking an opposing position.

Many have commented, as above, that castration is irreversible; in terms of reproductive capability this is certainly true. But with HRT and implants, a boy can become a man in other respects.

When it comes to boys, NOT castrating them is even more IRREVERSIBLE. Once a boy passes thru puberty and adolescence he is a man and will remain so. The changes that occur during this period are the most profound, and have the most impact, of anything in a boy's life.

Simply, a boy can become a man with HRT, but a man can never return to being a boy.

This is important.

Lost in the discussion is the desirability of entering manhood. The common assumption here is to let the guy decide if he wants a castration when he is legally an adult. For many guys, including myself, and others that write and comment here and on BME, it is far too late.

There is a second underlying assumption here: that a boy [pre-pubertal] is too young to know if he wants to be castrated. I know most boys would not even entertain the notion of being neutered. Keep in mind though that boys that repulse the idea are often reflecting the values they absorb every day.

For a boy to propose or consider castration, it should be an indication of strength of his desire or need. One way to address this is to provide a delayed puberty for boys desiring castration before puberty so that they can be old enough to make the decision themselves. The most direct way is androgen blockers. This way, a boy can discontinue the drugs at any time and allow maturity to commence, if he changes his mind.

Ironically, boys castrated before puberty for medical reasons are allowed to determine when and. more importantly. _IF_ they want to pass thru puberty and adolescence. I know one adult "boy" that never started HRT [cancer survivor] and has never regretted it. The implants are the originals [boy sized] and overall he still looks very young. The one thing some people notice is that his limbs are disportionately long. Given his sports are swimming, soccer, and track, that has been an advantage from his perspective, though I have wondered if he perhaps he chose those sports for that reason.

For boy choristers [and this is just one group], puberty can be devestating. For boys that are involved in many athletics, like baseball, puberty is welcomed; it improves his skills. For choristers, especially the highly gifted ones, who hold choir as central to their lives as baseball is for many little leaguers, it is particularly cruel. They reach a zenith, a star performer, and they can be member of the ranks of the siilent voices within 3 to 6 months.

I know one boy chorister that is a castrati. He was voluntary castrated at 15 [at a clinic in Amsterdam] to preserve his voice. When the testes were examined after he was castrated, it was determined that they were vestigal. They would never have matured, and likely would have had to be removed anyway.

bullgeo:

"Hey, what about all of the boys that were castrated so they could sing in church, where was that? Germany? I know there was a famous boy's choir, right?" [See my separate thread on Modern Castrati.]

Why not give boys that want to delay puberty or never enter it, the option, using reversible means? Why should the option be restricted to those boys that obtain it only as a side effect of medically-mandated castration?

Another problem is that if a boy wants castration, or even delay puberty, he is thought to need counseling, but if a boy is castrated for medical reasons and then chooses not to go on HRT, then he does need any counseling. Well, if a boy doesn't want to go through puberty, does he need counseling, or doesn't he?

Personally, I have never found being an adult as giving me anything I did not have prior to puberty, but did give some things I rather not have, including the onset, at the start of puberty, of Bi-Polar Disorder and clinical depression, let alone the normal changes in sexual characteristics. I also did not like my "new" genitals for 3 to 4 years after they started to mature and still only grudgingly accept them.

Castration after pubery will not reverse those conditions, plus it will cause medical problems that do not occur in boys nuetered before puberty. From my own experiences, a boy deciding to be castrated may not be anymore wrong than the adults around him forcing a boy to endure puberty and entering manhood, whether it is best for him or not.

To be sure, there are side-effects of delayed puberty [natural or induced] and pre-pubertal castration, but in contrast to those that can occur after puberty they are far less significant. For pre-pubertal castration, the univeral side-effect is the loss of erecticle capability. A boy has to decide how important masturbation is in evaluating his options

I have spoken to numerous boys and men with these mental health issues [and several others] and _everyone_ of them state that they started with the onset of puberty.

happousai:

"I wish someone had castrated me before puberty."

So do I.

I did not ask to be castrated at the start of puberty. even though I did want it. I didn't know what it was called then, but I was pretty sure everyone would think me insane for asking. Well turns out I may be half crazy now because I didn't.

I reiterate, adults do not know any better if it is good for the boy to go though puberty than the boy knows if he should not. The boy may know better. He is the only one that has to live his live as either the boy or the man.

I can not speak for other members here, but I firmly believe that both questions have to be considered valid, and both have to be considered as equally important. As part of sexual education, boys should be made aware that puberty does have do be endured. I know what I wanted then, and it is too late for me now.

Do we, or any adult, truly have the right to mandate to every boy that they pass through puberty and adolescence?

YC

YankeeClipper has asked, very clearly and articulately, an important question. One that I hope will be taken seriously by the members of the Eunuch Archive and responded to with thought, rather than strong emotion.

When I first came to the Archive, I would have reacted, instantly, with great passion (and revulsion) to the thought of castration of children. Now, after meeting and talking with several of the members here, after corresponding with even more of them, and after a great deal of reading and research, I’m much less sure of my answer.

I’m now convinced that “gender dysphoria” comes in more flavors than the psychiatric establishment currently wants to think (though I’ve talked with some who are open to change). The psychiatrist’s bible, the DSM-IV (Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders - Fourth Edition) includes a diagnostic category for gender dysphoria:

302.6 Gender Identity Disorder

There are two components of Gender Identity Disorder, both of which must be present to make the diagnosis. There must be evidence of a strong and persistent gross-gender identification, which is the desire to be, or the insistence that one is of the other [emphasis added] sex. This cross-gender identification must not merely be a desire for any perceived cultural advantages of being the other sex. there must also be evidence of persistent discomfort about one’s assigned sex or a sense of inappropriateness in the gender role of that sex. The diagnosis is not made if the individual has a concurrent physical intersex condition (e.g., androgen insensitivity syndrome or congenital adrenal hyperplasia). To make the diagnosis, there must be evidence of clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning.

There is recognition of male-to-female and female-to-male transsexual identity – though there’s an emphasis on treatment to “cure” it, rather than any acceptance of its reality.

What I see very clearly in a few individuals whom I have met here is a very clear male-to-eunuch transsexual identity. YankeeClipper mentions his own. Philip, in his outstanding autobiographical thread Philip: The Making of a Eunuch (http://www.eunuch.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=7423) also discusses it clearly and articulately. Another such person on the Archive has become a good friend and the source of a great deal of enlightenment.

I have communicated with individuals who initially thought that they were male-to-female, but only later discovered that, not only were they not female, they were neither polar gender. I have heard of two female-to-male transsexuals who went through painful and expensive gender reassignment, only to discover that their ideal gender was “eunuch”.

DSM-IV clearly states that many individuals with “Gender Identity Disorder” can be identified by age 4 or 5.

What sort of treatment OUGHT to be available to such children? In the Netherlands, they can receive hormone blockers to prevent puberty in the “wrong” gender, but any surgical reassignment must wait until they are adults and can make the legal decision themselves. I have heard of a case in England of a 10 year old male-to-female who is currently on androgen blockers (at the expense of the National Health Service).

Tentatively, I had termed this form of gender dysphoria “Choirboy Syndrome”. Not because the individuals wanted to become catrati to preserve their voices, but because they were choirboy age when they were first clearly aware of their “eunuch” gender identity.

I was surprised (and pleased) to discover that Charlie Anders, in her novel Choir Boy (Brooklyn: Soft Skull Press, 2005) refers to the same syndrome when Dr. Tamarind says to the story’s hero:

”One thing’s for sure. You won’t get any more pills if you’re not really transgendered. Not from me, not from that clinic. We can’t prescribe without a clear diagnosis. GID [Gender Identity Disorder] is a diagnosis. ‘Wants To Stay a Choirboy’ doesn’t show up in the DSM-IV.” ––page 187

The novel clearly has a strong autobiographical component. Charlie Anders is the publisher of Other magazine and is a male-to-female.

What OUGHT to be done about a very real population? I’m certainly far from reaching my own conclusion. I’d like to hear some good discussion of the issues raised.

Jesus:

"

JesusA (imported) wrote: Sun Jun 12, 2005 7:33 pm Tentatively, I had termed this form of gender dysphoria “Choirboy Syndrome”. Not because the individuals wanted to become catrati to preserve their voices, but because they were choirboy age when they were first clearly aware of their “eunuch” gender identity.

"

For as far back as I can remember, it has been referred to as "Peter Pan Syndrome" and is, at least informally, recognized by some therapists.

More recently, I have developed friendship with guys with "Choirboy Syndrome" for exactly what the name implies. They are excellent alto, treble or soprano choral singers and are very clear about not wanting to join the ranks of the silent voices. Others, that did lose their voices, and with it every thing else that was central in their life - the concerts, the time spent with other choirboys, the rehersals, the music itself, and all of the richness that is a part of the unique world of the chorister - it was a terrible loss or worse.

My friend that was castrated this past winter at 15, now remains lead chorister and lead soprano in his Welsh Cathedral choir and is comfortable with his decision. He was disappointed that he can no longer masturbate [he wishes he had not learned how so that he wouldn't now miss it] but as he has put it, he "sing with balls." His voice continues to develop more brilliance and gain power while his love of choral/baroque/classical music continues to grow. [It is likely that he would have been castrated at some point since it turns out he testes were not going to develop, but that was not known then. It is why he was still pre-pubescent at 15.]

Contrary to the mistaken belief oft-stated amoung members here, the castrati never disappeared.

YankeeClipper (imported) wrote: Sun Jun 12, 2005 5:40 pm See my separate thread on Modern Castrati.

I believe he should have the right, without resorting to travelling to Holland, to obtain castration. Oh - he spent six months wieghing the question before choosing to move forward. Which of you is willing to say he made the wrong choice, or that he should be denied the choice?

I don't know what the right age to allow a boy to choose to stay a boy, but he should have the right to at least, in a reversible way, remain a boy until he can make the choice, My opinion is that by 15, if a boy is going to want his balls, he'll have decided by then that he does. Keep in mind that most of those that seek castration first started to develop the desire either during puberty, or just before it's onset. In his case it was before puberty, but it was not genital dysphoria, but an exchange of his testes for his singing and his music.

He knows his options for the future: HRT and adoption [one, both, or neither]. This allows him to become a man. a father, or both, IF HE WANTS TO.

One the other guys I know was a lead chorister and lead alto. He was offered castration at 12, but his father refused to allow it. When puberty hit, his voice broke and never returned. It is flat and hard to control. He had to leave the choir and since his voice didn't return, neither could he to the choir. His father's decision created a chasm between them that shows no signs of closing. He has continued his studies in music, but without his voice, it is not the same. He does not want to be an adult, or a father, but he cannot go back to being a boy.

Only 1 in 8 choristers are able to return to singing after puberty. For the boys that are most intensely involved in the choral world, castration has to remain an option.

One other thing that I think need to be emphasized again: When a boy is castrated before puberty, he remains a boy, only one lacking testes. This is critical to this discussion. Of the guys I know that were castrated before puberty, all report feeling no different or of suffering serious medical/psychological conditions after castration. They all lost the ability to mastubate, and have developed [or are developing] long limbs, but otherwise have had no other side-effects [including fat gain or breast development].

There is a clear biological reason for this: until puberty, the testes produce minimal levels of testosterone, thus the loss is minimal. This is radically different from an adult that is castrated where there is a huge drop in the testosterone levels. That is one reason why I can not pursue castration now; it would only exascerbate the problems I already have with clinical depression.

I think our society has inculcated into the minds of most boys that they have to become a man and that if they think otherwise, they should feel guilt and think of themselves as somehow abnormal. For boys that truly want to remain boys [and thus should] I think we have to start to provide that option.

YC

JesusA (imported) wrote: Sun Jun 12, 2005 7:33 pm Charlie Anders, in her novel Choir Boy (Brooklyn: Soft Skull Press, 2005) --

”One thing’s for sure. You won’t get any more pills if you’re not really transgendered. Not from me, not from that clinic. We can’t prescribe without a clear diagnosis. GID [Gender Identity Disorder] is a diagnosis. ‘Wants To Stay a Choirboy’ doesn’t show up in the DSM-IV.” ––page 187

Quite correct!!! There is absolutely nothing dis-ordered about wanting to stay a Choirboy! Quite the reverse. It is a very well thought through and rational decision when faced with a very serious, life-altering change that will wreak havoc in that boy's life.

Jesus - thanks for that quote.

YC

"

YankeeClipper (imported) wrote: Sun Jun 12, 2005 5:40 pm I know one adult "boy" that never started HRT [cancer survivor] and has never regretted it. The implants are the originals [boy sized] and overall he still looks very young. The one thing some people notice is that his limbs are disportionately long. Given his sports are swimming, soccer, and track, that has been an advantage from his perspective, though I have wondered if he perhaps he chose those sports for that reason.

"

I want to point out why he chose to pass on HRT. Initially, he just kept postponing starting on it. At 18, he finally did make the decision not to pursue it at all. He was, and still is, satisfied with his physical appearance, does not miss sex, since he never even starting masturbating, and did not want to get into a drug regimen that would have a lifetime commitment. He recognized that stopping HRT would have the same impact that castration of an adult has. Thus why start? I agree with his logic.

YankeeClipper (imported) wrote: Sun Jun 12, 2005 9:59 pm My friend that was castrated this past winter at 15, now remains lead chorister and lead soprano in his Welsh Cathedral choir and is comfortable with his decision. He was disappointed that he can no longer masturbate [he wishes he had not learned how so that he wouldn't now miss it] but as he has put it, he "sing with balls."

I wonder if he would be able to masturbate by using Viagra or the erection drug that is injected into the base of the penis.

Would it be possible for him to take a tiny dose of testosterone that would give him the about same amount that a six-year-old boy has? If he did, would be able to masturbate and still keep his voice?

YankeeClipper (imported) wrote: Sun Jun 12, 2005 5:40 pm When it comes to boys, NOT castrating them is even more IRREVERIBLE. Once a boy passes thru puberty and adolescence he is a man and will remain so. The changes that occur during this period are the most profound, and have the most impact, of anything in a boy's life.

Simply, a boy can become a man with HRT, but a man can never return to being a boy.

This is important.

YC

This is not just important! I'd have to say that in my experience, NO TRUE WORDS HAVE EVER BEEN SPOKEN!

I would do anything, give anything to be able to turn back the clock and have been castrated prior to puberty.

This topic is really the HOTTEST POTATO I've ever handled, and I write advisedly having been a member of YahooGroups Castrati History group whereon I precipitated a lot of controversy by making exactly that comment in a post. Nowhere did I say I approved of child castration, only that I wish I'd been castrated as a child so I'd never have had to experience the nightmare of living as an adult MALE.

I am one of those MtE (male to eunuch) transgendered folks that Jesus writes about... in fact, I happen to be the specific friend he mentions in his post, who, in course of our face to face discussion, allowed him to see just how real the gender identity of "eunuch" can be for people like me. I had significant gender dysphoria as a young child and experienced endless angst about the social role expected of me as a boy and later as a man. None of it fit then, and it still does not fit today. I'm not a "guy" by any stretch of the imagination. Nor am I a girl or woman.

Unlike YankeeClipper, I just wasn't smart enough at that age to know that those bits between my legs would cause me such horrors. When testosterone began to rise and hair began to sprout on my body, I was horrified at the changes taking place. I felt disgusted and disgusting and wore only long sleeve shirts buttoned all the way to the top so as little as possible of my changing body would show. I cried for weeks when I was told I could no longer sing in the boys choir at my church because my voice had broken. It seemed my life was over in sixth grade.

It was.

I've since been castrated and take a hefty dose of antiandrogens daily, lest even a vestige of hormonal masculinity peep through. I shave off all my body hair and hope that some day I'll be able to afford electrolysis to get rid of it. My appearance has happily grown more and more androgynous and I occasionally get called "Ma'am" by those who don't look too closely.

Insulted? Not on your life. It means I'm closer to my gender ideal.

Yet all these things only approximate the life I might have had. I can never truly go back. There is no way, as YankeeClipper says, to turn a man back into a boy, and I never wanted to be a boy anyway. While I'm grateful I've been able to minimize and even negate the effects of my post pubertal biology, I'll never truly be able to express, phyically and mentally, the gender I am inside: non-gendered eunuch.

Do I pretend to know what is right for others, especially children?

Do I think we should allow pre-pubertal castration or at least suspension of puberty (as in the Netherlands) until a person reaches the age where the law allows self-determination in gender matters?

I simply don't know. I don't think I really understood matters well enough at that age to know what would have stopped the process.

The best I can do is share is my experiences, like the many nights that, as a child, I cried myself to sleep asking God to somehow miraculously allow me to wake up as a girl—not because I wanted to be a girl, but because I knew I'd never make it through life as a boy.

Fifty some years of living haven't changed what I knew at age 5, and I'm incredibly grateful for a therapist who supported what I knew to be right for me when I told him that I was going to Philadelphia a few years ago. And grateful also for friends like Jesus who see me as a whole and complete human being... as I am!

Thanks.

Greg

curious_guy (imported) wrote: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:10 am Would it be possible for him to take a tiny dose of testosterone that would give him the about same amount that a six-year-old boy has? If he did, would be able to masturbate and still keep his voice?

Even in boys the natural testosterone level varies enough between boys to make the level for a specific boy at six years old impossible to calculate and try to determine the correct level risks changing [and potentially the loss of] the boy's voice.

YC

Skoptzikov:

"

Skopztikov (imported) wrote: Mon Jun 13, 2005 3:04 am I cried for weeks when I was told I could no longer sing in the boys choir at my church because my voice had broken. It seemed my life was over in sixth grade.

It was.

"

I know only of what a loss like that can be, not what it is like, not having been involved in singing to the degree he obviously was. It is this loss that causes puberty to be so cruel to choristers, why my 15 year-old friend sought, and obtained castration, and the other friend I discussed is still deeply angry at his father.

Unlike Skoptzikov, I had no problem being a boy; it is that I wanted to stay just that.

YC

I wish that I had been castrated at an early age rather than as an adult. I really wanted to be castrated at 9 and asked and had some school friends try to do so but we did not know how. We tried to squeeze them to destroy them but could not do so. I never wanted my nuts then or later but did not get castrated til late 30's. It has been wonderful but could have been better if done back then.