Given the number of people into this lifestyle I wish there was a Gay Master/slave discusssion area and for that matter a straight Dom/sub area.

J

slavemasterjay (imported) wrote: Tue Jul 01, 2003 9:33 pm Given the number of people into this lifestyle I wish there was a Gay Master/slave discusssion area and for that matter a straight Dom/sub area.

J

The only difference between straight and gay S/M play is the identity of the sexes involved. Otherwise they all do the same things. I do think the dominant women are a lot more unrestrained when it comes to making it real, however especially regarding CBT, whereas the male masters get real with TT. I also think that the absence of such a section does not mean you can't introduce the subject under the Deep, Dark Cellar.

yankee masha (imported) wrote: Thu Jul 10, 2003 3:53 am The only difference between straight and gay S/M play is the identity of the sexes involved. Otherwise they all do the same things. I do think the dominant women are a lot more unrestrained when it comes to making it real, however especially regarding CBT, whereas the male masters get real with TT. I also think that the absence of such a section does not mean you can't introduce the subject under the Deep, Dark Cellar.

I disagree. In the Old Guard, The Old Masters were much more cruel and unrestrained.

Now ... Master Slave has become much more of just a sex game to be played once in a while.

I know some of the Old Guard. And they have told me that I would have loved that time ... actually owning slaves. Real BDSM! Tortures and Delights. Making a Man your absolute Property for life and then doing as you pleased with him ... and if you ever tired of him .. you sold him.

I am much of the Old Guard. Master Slave should not just be a sex game played like children. Master/Slave should be a life style much as it used to be and once was.

SSMaster666

You just shifted into a whole other discussion. At my age I think I know what the Old Guard was. It was more real then and more erotic (to myh way of thinking), but I am not talking about real ownership. I was making a simple point that whether you are hetero or gay, the activities are the same, they are just done with different sexual partners. Straight male slaves surrender to whatever their mistresses inflict, even to sucking cock and taking stuff up the ass. And tit play. Same as gay male slaves. And conversely the same actions are inflicted on female slaves by their masters or mistresses.

To pursue your new topic, which is interesting, I believe the cultural and social conditions that generated the Old Guard style of S/M have been absent for the past 25 years. Today S/M is more mainstream. Young straight (non-masochistic) males shave their heads and bodies and get their nipples pierced and have not a kinky trait in their systems. It has become Style. Therefore it no longer has any mystique, secrecy, turgid undertones of erotic longing. It is Yawn City. Guilt is what motivated the old style. Kids today are more accepting of their sexuality, while being raised to suppress most of it because of AIDS and Chrisitan bullshit. They are more confused. We knew what we wanted and went for it. Hard.

yankee masha (imported) wrote: Fri Jul 11, 2003 8:16 am You just shifted into a whole other discussion. At my age I think I know what the Old Guard was. It was more real then and more erotic (to myh way of thinking), but I am not talking about real ownership. I was making a simple point that whether you are hetero or gay, the activities are the same, they are just done with different sexual partners. Straight male slaves surrender to whatever their mistresses inflict, even to sucking cock and taking stuff up the ass. And tit play. Same as gay male slaves. And conversely the same actions are inflicted on female slaves by their masters or mistresses.

To pursue your new topic, which is interesting, I believe the cultural and social conditions that generated the Old Guard style of S/M have been absent for the past 25 years. Today S/M is more mainstream. Young straight (non-masochistic) males shave their heads and bodies and get their nipples pierced and have not a kinky trait in their systems. It has become Style. Therefore it no longer has any mystique, secrecy, turgid undertones of erotic longing. It is Yawn City. Guilt is what motivated the old style. Kids today are more accepting of their sexuality, while being raised to suppress most of it because of AIDS and Chrisitan bullshit. They are more confused. We knew what we wanted and went for it. Hard.

With what you have just said. I have to agree with you 100%. You are very right. I cannot disagree with you at all.

And yes. I guess it would be good to have a place to chat for both. Maybe that way it can again become a lifestyle instead of just a sex game.

With talk also comes understanding and ideas. A need to try. A need to have what once was one more time.

Camelot redux? I think once something is gone we should be happy we lived it, not use energy up wishing we could get it back. But that is just my opinion. But when it comes to this sort of thing, there is something sacred, awful and august about it to the ones who are deeply involved in its magic. You know ionstinctively who the others are when you meet them. you don't need to tell them what you "do" in the scene. It is all understood.

But even though the actual setting has been commercialized and turned into a Look, a Style, a Trend, nd degenerated into a trashy mockery of what it was -- that does not mean you can't live it on your own terms if you find others who think like you.

I sense that you have only been told aobut the existence of this time, and did not have the opportunity to live and be steeped in it. I guess this because you say you were told about it by some of the Old Guard.

I hope you know that the "real" ones do not like to be associated with the kind of "Mr. Leather Sir" contests, and the "mistresses" for hire that are so distasteful and are mockeries of the real kinds of relaitonships that can exist.

I don't need to go on and on to you, as I would be preaching to the choir. I just hope you can either establish such an intimacy with someone of your choice, and find others of like mind. Others who do not set up web sites with long boring manifestoes about power exchange, and set forth long tedious, mind numbing rules and expectations about how they wish to dominate or be dominated. The true relationship is usually quite silent, instinctively intimate, and participants don't need to be told how to treat each other as they know already. And I find that when you find thoe of like mind the action together never grows old, and never becomes routine. It is a true route to the human spirit and true intimacy.

Old guard? Damn, I hate that term. What a joke. It has become nothing more than a toss off line invented by some bored queen on a bar stool. (and one who has little or no concept of what he/she's talking about) The reason it's argued about so much is no one really knows what it was suppose to signify or how it relates to todays world of leather and S & M. Just like there are no hard and fast labels today in any segment of gay life so it was twenty-five to thirty years ago. However, there were groups of outlaw bikers who had little to do with the gay, leather bar, pseudo Master/slave milieu, who lived and practiced male slavery quite successfully.

Take it from someone who's been there and back. Turned sixty-two yesterday and have been a Master for over thrity years. Not so old I'm over the hill though. Me and my ropin' partner won the team roping event in my home town at the 4th of July rodeo.

I loved the line about selling a slave when you got tired of him. In all my years I have never known of a Master selling a slave for such a reason or abandoning one because of illness. The relationships I witnessed and men I rode bikes with bonded too deeply to ever consider such a thing.

I have written extensively about such ideas and people my slave and I have known and loved over the years. If you're interested, you go to my web site and read 'til your heart's content but I guaran-damn-tee-ya' it will leave you longing for a simpler yet more passionate life style. There are no manifestos and I don't write to proselytize anyone to my way of thinking. I simply record what I lived and observed.

URL: http://www.asstr.org/~Waddie_Greywolf

Start with the HTML "Foreword" to the story "Booger Red & Cowboy" and you'll find a pretty fair definition and historical accounting of what many have told me they remembered as "Old Guard." Keep in mind it had very little to do with the hard core biker groups of the major metropolitian cities who only knew of these men and tried to copy their life styles with little success.

For me, since I'm still living it, if you even suggested to my slave I'm "Old Guard" he'd kick your butt thinking your were insulting his Master for being over the hill. <wicked grin>

Master Waddie

Welcome back, enlightened stranger!

I especially am struck by this line:

Master Waddie (imported) wrote: Sat Jul 12, 2003 3:07 am I loved the line about selling a slave when you got tired of him. In all my years I have never known of a Master selling a slave for such a reason or abandoning one because of illness. The relationships I witnessed and men I rode bikes with bonded too deeply to ever consider such a thing.

In over 15 years of shooting weddings (all of them heterosexual), I can count on one hand the number that are still intact. Guess they hadn't bonded too deeply, huh?

Anyway...if you've got the time, check out these great novel-length fictions. I've read every one of them, and been deeply moved by each. One can tell, when reading even based-in-fact novels, if the author actually knows what he's talking about. Such is a rare thing.

Stephen King, Orson Scott Card, Richard Bach, Huston Curtiss, to name a few, have it. David Eddings, JK Rowling (and other fantasy authors) don't. Not that they don't crank out great writing, but it just doesn't read the same way. Only very rarely does a piece of work come along that grabs you and demands that you read it all at once.

You won't see any little boys out on the street with an owl on his shoulder and a wand in his hand doing Magic, no matter how hard you look. You will, however, see some of the things that Master Waddie writes about - once you know how to spot it.

I'm 62 as well and have no problem with using words as a way of communicating. I don't allow myself to stumble over watching every word because someone might get offended and hit me. Yawn. I don't know what there is in the term Old Guard that could be interpreted as derogatory but I do know that biker folks tend to look for insults and generally find them.

But that doesn't make you a good person LOL.

I agree about your whole thing. It is not possible to explain the true biker S/M man-to-man style to someone today. The whole society and counter-culture was different then and the attachments were sacred -- such as between you and your lover. We weren't afraid to use the term "lover" instead of partner, as if there was something wrong with the term. There I go, getting upset over labels after telling you not to! But as a biker you would do what you want anyway. We weren't ashamed to love another man instead of kissing ass and calling it "partners." But then we also could have sex without rubbers and the new boys have to compromise.

What you are saying is the truth. We made our own lifestyles. We didn't imitate the heteros. We lived apart and made our own society and I'm glad to hear it still works, and is still in place.

But most people automatically connect the S/M lifestyle with bikers and leather. I have always had a motorcycle jacket and boots since you needed them to get into the only bars that served the S/M style. But I never did find any attraction for bikes and leather sexually. I was into just plain S/M without the leather image. I won't go into it as it would take too long. I used to get off on the original Colt studio guys back in the 60's and 70's. Totallyh masculine, deliciously erotic, great asses, and the leather and bike image just enhanced their overall masculine look. No doubt the biker thing is for men. but so are the things that I liked.

I was interested (as a side bar here) that many straight biker clubs had as part of their initiation ritual, that the leader of the pack fucked all the new initiates as part of their being admitted to the club. I heard it not from the gay grapevine, but from a straight source. This guy's brother wanted to join such a club and was debating if he could take getting it up the ass as part of the initiaion.

Glad you wrote. Glad you're still there. I always thought it worked, glad to know it does.

Yankee Masha

Paolo wrote: Sat Jul 12, 2003 5:00 am In over 15 years of shooting weddings (all of them heterosexual), I can count on one hand the number that are still intact. Guess they hadn't bonded too deeply, huh?

What happened during the late 1960s? It appears that many of the youth of that time (and later) became overly obsessed with instant gratification and lacked any real commitment to anything.