Does anyone know how the Chior boys of the Catholic church were castrated? How about in Roman times, they and the greeks believed in castration?

Stevesd

I believe that a member who called themself Ilmusico or soemthing like that posted some stories that had some accurate descriptions from Italian literature.

They gave them hot baths and drugs I believe and then they did it.

Maybe if you go to the storyboard and look under the author's name for Ilmusico you will be able to find a story or two.

Good Luck.

A-1

Patrick Barbier, "World of the Castrati", ISBN #0-285-63460-7

The Italian Castrati were usually castrated by the method of slitting the scrotum, removing the testicles, and tying off the cords. Some other writers also mention cauterization of the wounds with a red-hot implement. The empty scrotum was often left alone, to "simply wither and come to nothing."

The boy was sometimes drugged with opium in warm wine, and then soaked in a hot bath until he was quite out of it. Other practices included compression of the carotid arteries in the neck, causing him to faint as well. Barbier also mentions the Napoleonic practice of a bath of ice water to reduce bleeding, but most texts cite a HOT bath which was more conducive to making the scrotum "more tractable" and easier to work with.

Charles D'Ancillion (Ancillon) also mentions these practices, which varied from "barber to barber." Some did it one way, some did it another, but the end result was always the removal of the testicles.

Several authors also contrast the practice of castrating choir boys to the practice of harem eunuchs, who were (like the Chinese) "swept clean" - both penis and testicles/scrotum. Castrati were only castrated; neither author mentions the area of penectomy/nullification. For their purposes, a full nullification would have been an uneeded risk.

The Greeks did not believe much in castration, as manhood was highly valued by them. They did import some eunuch slaves for diverse positions, but the industry was not big in that area.

Certain cities, such as Sardis and Ephesus (as cited by Herodotus, "Histories") contained merchants who dealt in eunuch slaves, usually young boys, but this was not as common a practice as it was in other countries of the time.

I don't have much information on hand about the Greeks belief in eunuchism, but if anyone else does, please post it.

Thanks.

Indeed you can check my stories about the Italian castrati, which are based on large part on historical research. "Letters from Naples" and "Pilgrimage to Norcia".

But to give you a short overview: Italain boys were castrated for the sake of their voices over about four centuries, by many thousand different surgeons, barbers, and some people who had no qualifications at all. So, there must have been really MANY methods used. The most cited in history books are these:

- Cutting small slits into each side of the sac, pretty high up, and removing the balls. Sometimes the cords were simply cut and left to bleed until closing themselves. Causes lots of bleeding but reduces risk of infection, and usually works for small boys (not for adults, who can easily bleed to death). In other cases the cords were scraped through, which causes much faster coagulation of the blood. Other practitioners literally ripped the balls out, which also caused a kind of rupture in the cords that produced less bleeding - but don't ask me about the pain. They didn't seem to worry about this part. Lastly, sometimes the cords were cauterized.

- The second method left the balls in, but cut the cords. A very small, pointed knife was pushed through the skin, and used to cut or scrape through each cord. It was the minimally invasive method of the time. The boy was told that his nuts were NOT being removed - true but deceiving! They shrivelled up and disappeared in the following weeks.

- Crushing was a much used method. The balls of the poor boy were simply compressed, beaten, and otherwise treated until they were a shapeless mass. The body then absorbed this. But it was a "risky" method: Often enough functional tissue remained to cause a voice change anyway! Understandably, the boys tried to hide such a condition by learning early to sing falsetto. This is the origin of the stories about certain "castrati" who not only were capable in the bed, but even married! Like that lovely story from the Vatican, when a castrato from the Sistine Chapel choir wrote to the pope requesting permission to marry, since "my castration did not render me without power to satisfy a lady". The pope wrote his order on the side of the letter, and sent it to the Vatican surgeon: "Castrate this guy again, but DO IT RIGHT this time!"

- It seems that crushing of the cords was also used (Burdizzo style), but there aren't many reports of this.

As for pain control, again many methods were used. One was placing the boy in a very hot bath, and pour ever hotter water in, until overheating him to the point that he fainted. Another was compressing the arteries in the neck until making him loose consciousness by lack of blood flow to the brain. It was common to make the boy drunk with liberal amounts of wine - often in combination with another method. Opium was sometimes used to drug the boys, but this was dangerous because the low certainty of the concentration of available opium caused a large risk of an overdose. In places located close to tall mountains it was customary to send someone up to fetch some snow, which would be used to numb the operation area. This is one reason why Norcia was a well liked place to have a boy "humanely" castrated.

But many thousand boys did not get such nice treatment. They were simply held down, some rag stuffed in their mouths, and cut.

Generally, the conditions for surgery were not as bad as many people nowadays think. The need for cleanliness was known, it was known that boiling water was good to disinfect knifes, flames were used for sterilization too, a range of antiseptics from alcohol to plant extracts were used, and likewise there were pain medications for afterwards, such as birch bark infusion, which contains exactly the same active ingredient as Aspirin does. Other plants have blood stilling effect, and were profusely used.

Some boys DID die during or after the operation, but the percentage of fatal outcome was very much smaller than what many people think. The vast mayority of these boys survived.

Most boys were not told what was in store for them, and found out during or even after the procedure. Most learned the reason only from their classmates in the conservatory.

The vast mayority of the boys were pressed into becoming castrati. But there were a few who wanted to become castrati, and got their wish. Specially in countries where castration was not common, such as France, the few castrati made there were mostly volunteers! There are some amazing stories of them, and I intend to write a historically based story about one when I have time.

Well, this post is long enough already. I hope it was enlightening!

Il Musico.

Il Musico (imported) wrote: Mon May 12, 2003 1:20 pm Well, this post is long enough already. I hope it was enlightening!

Il Musico.

Indeed it was, and very depressing as well.

Il Musico (imported) wrote: Mon May 12, 2003 1:20 pm - The second method left the balls in, but cut the cords. A very small, pointed knife was pushed through the skin, and used to cut or scrape through each cord. It was the minimally invasive method of the time. The boy was told that his nuts were NOT being removed - true but deceiving! They shrivelled up and disappeared in the following weeks.

Is there a reason why modern surgical castrations aren't done this way?

Thanks, Il Musico, for the fascinating account of how castrati were castrated. I was wondering if you or anybody else have any information on how the Chinese eunuchs, or more accurately, as Il pointed out, nullos, were nullified?

>>

Il Musico (imported) wrote: Mon May 12, 2003 1:20 pm - The second

happousai (imported) wrote: Wed May 14, 2003 9:12 pm method left the balls in, but cut the cords.

>Is there a rea

son why modern surgical castrations aren't done this way?

I suppose it's because nowadays asepsis is no problem, so it doesn't cause a significant risk to make the slits large enough to take'em out and keep 'em from literally rotting inside the body. Back then, it was safer to make the wound as small as possible.

And perhaps also because nowadays it isn't that usual to castrate someone without telling him the truth about what's happening! And that was more the rule than the exception with those boys. So it

hkeunuch (imported) wrote: Tue May 20, 2003 4:31 am was good (mostly for the perpetrators) if the full extent of the deed wasn't immediately obvious to the victim.

> I was wondering if you or anybody el

se have any information on how the Chinese eunuchs, or more accurately, as Il pointed out, nullos, were nullified?

I haven't looked into that part of history, since my main interest is in music, and thus in musical castrati. But somehow I have the dim and distant feeling that some kind of knife must have been involved...

Bye,

Il Musico

...to this subject comes from The Encyclopedia of Unusual Sex Practices by Brenda Love

ISBN# 0-942637-64-X

It starts out under the heading castration and says in part...

"...The most feared form of castration among men is the complete removal of both the penis and the testicles. Charles Panati, in his book Panati's Extra-ordinary Endings of Practically Everything and Everybody, describes the ancient surgical procedure for this type of castration. It began by placing the victim on a table, immobilizing him, tying a cord around his penis and scrotum that cut off the circulation, slicing the genitals off with a razor, and cauterizing the open wound with a hot poker. The victim was not allowed to eat or drink for several days and then was given water so that the urine flow would open up the urtheral passage. Only about 20% survived this surgery. Other methods were similar, except the slave was given alcohol and a hot bath to decrease the pain. After the penis and testicles were tied off and severed, alum and antiseptics were applied. A feather quill was then inserted into the urthera to prevent its healing shut. Those undergoing this procedure had a 40% survival rate. ..."

It goes on to say...

"...Castration due to disease or trauma to the testicles after pubesence may produce a decrease in mental acuity, physical vitality, aggressiveness, desire for social interaction, appetite, and sex drive. The effects can take several years to develop or may not develop at all if the adrenal glands function properly. If side effects do occur a hormone replacement therapy is required to keep the prostate gland functioning. Many men who have had only their testicles removed lead an active sex life. The orgasms may feel different and be more difficult to achieve, but they are not impossible. This applies to men who have undergone penectomies as well. As long as the prostate gland remans intact for tactile stimulation an orgasm is theoretically possible."

Inquiring minds wanted to know...

A-1

Il Musico (imported) wrote: Wed May 21, 2003 1:06 pm I haven't looked into that part of history, since my main interest is in music, and thus in musical castrati. But somehow I have the dim and distant feeling that some kind of knife must have been involved...

Bye,

Il Musico

Same here. In the CD insert booklet to "The Last Castrato" - Alessandro Moreschi, pictured in my avitar- ("Last" being sort of a mis-nomer because there are other castrati on the disc, albeit supposedly older than Moreschi), they talk about in the hayday of castrati, shouts being called out, "E viva il cotello!" meaning "Long live the knife!"

The movie "Farinelli" (discussed in another thread here; I don't agree with much of the movie's portrayal, but that's another topic), started out showing a boy being put in a wooden tub of hot water and drugged some how. "Cry to Heaven" by Anne Rice, gives a detailed description of honey and wine being given to a boy of 6, and to strange sensations of soft hands between his legs, before his waking up with bandages in a fancy conservatory for eunuch children. The history also speaks of these castrations being done in pharmacies, basically, and lots of times done at the request of poor mothers hoping that their child would grow up to be famous, rich singers. Definately against the odds. At the same time, the castrations were blamed on "accidents" and never were officially legal.