According to CNN.com, a ruling by a U.S. appeals court could force millions of students to stop saying the Pledge of Allegiance by March 10, 2003. Nine states are affected: California, Oregon, Washington, Arizona, Montana, Idaho, Nevada, Alaska and Hawaii.

It seems the objection of the court are in the words "under God." We fought off a challenge to the Pledge decades ago and here it is again. I'm a teacher, I say the Pledge proudly, my students say it.

I'm the least religious person I know and yet I have no objections to saying the words "under God" and if it doesn't bother me, why should it bother anyone else.

If they take our Pledge of Allegiance from, next will ne the words "In God We Trust" from our coins and paper money.

You would think the courts had better issues to work on.

MacWolf

and I'm sick to death of the government of Bush and his henchmen, the so-called Christian right-wing, telling me and everybody else what to think and believe. When America works to be an imperial power or world class bully, I know that we aren't trusting in God. To use the name of God to bless our silly limited imperial aims is to defame God.

It does bother me, and did when I got detention for a week in third grade because I refused to say it. I'd say the rest of it, just not that part.

Frankly, I don't really care that much if "Under God" is there, nor do I really care that much if "In God We Trust" is on the money, but I do care that I or some kid has gotten/may be getting in trouble for refusing to lie.

...But the real problem is the idiotic medical doctor, Michael Newdow, that filed the action in the name of his daughter of whom he does not even have custody.

It is almost as if he is seeking to cause her to have troubles in school. He knew damned good and well that it would cause his daughter problems in school, because at last glance, around 80% of the people in the U.S. do not agree with the ruling. (Unscientific poll)

So now, his ex-wife has to explain to everybody the circumstances of the situation and that is it is not the choice of her or the child that this should be done.

Anyway, it is sad when a control-freak does this sort of thing out of spite. Even worse, it is sadder still when judges in a court agree with it.

So, the spoiled Doctor has his way which in effect thumbs his nose at society, the system and everyone one of us who want to believe in God and country.

Yes, this is a very rich pile of stinking shit. I hope that Doctor Newdow ends up eating it.

A-1

Zoroaster (imported) wrote: Wed Mar 05, 2003 7:18 am Frankly, I don't really care that much if "Under God" is there, nor do I really care that much if "In God We Trust" is on the money, but I do care that I or some kid has gotten/may be getting in trouble for refusing to lie.

The point is, Zoraster, this country was founded by Christians, for Christians, applying Christian concepts. Not Church, CHRISTIAN! (and there is a BIG difference in too many cases)

HOO boy I can imagine the flames I'm gonna get now.

As for the schools giving you a detention for not repeating it, well, having never attended public school in the USA I have to say that is one of the things that has made this country great: reciting the Pledge of Allegiance, having the flag in the classroom, etc, etc. We didn't get all that in Canada, and I think the difference in attitude of the people of the two countries is obvious. Canadians in general are not nearly as patriotic as Americans.

Please do not think I am trying to belittle any non-Christian or be derogatory in any way, I am just trying to point out that the founders of this country had Christian intent.

Oh, and if you think your rights are being violated by acknowledging the country in which you live was founded "under God," I suggest you go to Saudi Arabia, or Iraq, or China, and demand your rights as a non-whatever religion is there.

This one will go to the Supreme Court, where I hope there are those who have some sanity. We are so determined to assure everyone's freedom we are taking away freedoms at an alarming rate.

Mac,

MacWolfie (imported) wrote: Wed Mar 05, 2003 1:22 am According to CNN.com, a ruling by a U.S. appeals court could force millions of students to stop saying the Pledge of Allegiance by March 10, 2003. Nine states are affected: California, Oregon, Washington, Arizona, Montana, Idaho, Nevada, Alaska and Hawaii.

How come we are not surprised, it shows how well this doctor did in history as did the justices that made this ruling? Remember we put these legal minds the greatest the we have to sit on our courts and render their interpolation of the Constitution of the United States. I often wonder if any of them have actually read it. Back to the doctor that felt this was important to bring up all over again, we can only hope his patients start using other doctors, there about as common as lawyers.

River

Try reading about the endless religious wars in Europe from the middle ages on.

Bloody Mary, predecessor to Elizabeth I, slaughtered thousands because they would not embrace the catholic church. To her credit, Elizabeth did not turn on her catholic subjects when she came to the throne, declaring, "I have no window to see inside men's souls." But all over Europe, people were forced to mouth things they did not believe in at the government's order. Mary and Elizabeth's father, Henry VIII had Thomas More put to death because he refused to sign a statement acknowledging Henry as leader of the church in England. People were burned at the stake for being on the wrong side when rulers changed religions.

Think America is a christian country founded by christians? Well, America is a country with a lot of christians, (some of whom are hardly christian at all) but christianity is not the state religion. Jefferson said that freedom of religion includes the right to be "free FROM religion."

So, christian, under-god supporters, answer me this. Let's say you and your kids move to Utah or Idaho. The majority religion is Mormonism. What do you say when your daughter comes home and tells you "teacher read a beautiful story from the book of Mormon today." Or, "We learned Joseph Smith was God's prophet." There are areas in the US with majority asian populations. Would you all be cool with your kids being taught how Buddha is the key to enlightenment, or how Krishna controls the fates?

I had a visitor from England a few years ago, and on the way in from the airport, he asked, "is there a national holiday?" I said no, there wasn't, why did he ask? Seeing all the American flags, he just assumed that it was some day of celebration, since in his country, people seldom put out a flag unless it was a special occasion. Ever think that the reason so many people love to display our flag is because we ARE NOT required to salute, we do it because we WANT to?

Max

(need to buy a new flag, my old one wore out last summer. anyone know how i dispose of a tattered flag? i think there's a procedure.)

In light of the topic, and being interested myself in the historical tidbits I did a quick search.

I found this one site http://www.sciforums.com/archive/37/2002/07/3/8569

that is hotly debating the pledge and for the most part is filled with a bunch of folks just yelling at each other, but these two parts of two different postings seemed to stick out.

The words "Under God" are a late addition to the Pledge. The Pledge was written, I believe, in 1892. The words "Under God" were inserted in about 1954, directly in response to the "godless Communists".

You know, BEFORE Mr. D. Eisenhower made his idiotic, unconstitutional ruling, the pledge went "I pledge allegiance, to the flag, of the United States of America. And to the Republic, for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty, and justice for all.

So I looked some more and found this from a different site.

http://history.vineyard.net//pledge.htm

His original Pledge read as follows: 'I pledge allegiance to my Flag and (to*) the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

Written by:

Francis Bellamy (1855 - 1931), a Baptist minister

History:

In 1923 and 1924 the National Flag Conference, under the 'leadership of the American Legion and the Daughters of the American Revolution, changed the Pledge's words, 'my Flag,' to 'the Flag of the United States of America.' Bellamy disliked this change, but his protest was ignored.

In 1954, Congress after a campaign by the Knights of Columbus, added the words, 'under God,' to the Pledge. The Pledge was now both a patriotic oath and a public prayer.

http://history.vineyard.net//pledge.htm

http://www.sciforums.com/archive/37/2002/07/3/8569

FYI.

talula

The Flag

There are 4 originations that will dispose of old flags.

Boy Scouts, Girl Scouts, American Legion, Veterans of Foreign wars.

The way that the flag is disposed of is by fire.

I have been to several in the Boy Scouts, It is a ceremony done with honors.

River

I don't know how many of you have studied Philosophy.

It is a very, very interesting subject.

Postmodernism seems to be the newest concept from Philosophy. In the book, "Reality Isn't What It Used To Be" by Walter Truett Anderson, many of the concepts that we see under operation are explained.

I understand that part of what we are seeing here is a return to the days of when most had an idea of Honor, God and Country.

Like it or not, when 80% of America seems to agree that saying the Pledge of Allegiance in school is not a bad thing. (MSN poll) Hell, why make an issue of it.

Sure, diversity has its place in America.

It has NO place in the War on Terrorism, however.

Make no mistake, the head of Iraq's nuclear program told his story on the History Channel tonight, and HE says that So Damned Insane has nuclear material hidden where NOBODY can find it. SO, Hans Blix might as well be chasing his tail.

The Pledge of Allegiance is much more of a sign of solidarity than a prayer of any kind. With what we are looking at, folks, we need it and we sure as hell have it from the looks of things.

As for the Pledge of Allegiance, "Under God" means different things to different people.

Hell, some people even think that THEY are God. That is why, I suppose, that So Damned Insane thinks that he can win the impending war against his country, Iraq. It is because this bastard thinks that he is God people are already saying the Pledge, and that they are saying that they are under him. HE is GOD.

So, fellows, go with the flow.

America, according to Postmodernism philosophy you do not have to believe in her. Just know that the American system works.

The system of America was built on Patriotism and sacrifice. We have a proud tradition and much strength in the common American and the majority belief.

Nobody is forcing ANYBODY to be a Morman or a Catholic or a Fundamentalist Christian. We tolerate religous diversity.

And GOD can be whatever you believe God to be. But God and country is what America rallies around. YOur personal God, nobody else's.

If you must think of God as money. See? There, now. All of a sudden the Pledge of Allegiance starts making sense, doesn't it?

Here's a quiz. What religion would you be if you were a citizen of and lived in Saudi Arabia?

You see, we tolerate Islam, but they do not tolerate any religion but Islam.

THIS is why we need the pledge. It is solidarity. Nobody is going to kick you out of anything if you do not Pledge Allegiance, but as a child in school it always made me feel better when I realized that everybody was on the same side.

I have even seen some black moslems re-convert and say the Pledge of Allegiance real fast since 9-11-2001. You see, most everybody is pissed.

Do yo believe in America enough to Pledge Allegiance to her, or are you just here for a "free ride" on the backs of the people who are willing to fight for the Principles of Freedom?

You know, if it were not for the principle that made America great you'd all be speaking German or Japanese by now, if your Fathers and Grandfathers had survived WWII, that is.

Of course, lots of us drive Japanese cars, but that is because we as a people believe in diversity, forgiveness and renewal...But only after we kick the living shit out of some asshole who so richly deserves it.

Just remember this, a kiss is still a KISS AND A SIGH IS STILL A SIGH. The FUNDAMENTAL things apply, as time goes by...

And if those Goose-stepping North Koreans do not straighten up, they are gonna get theirs, too.

The whole damned country ought to be castrated...

Bottom line, you do not have to believe in it to know that it works and to know that we ought to be using it.

That, my friends, is Postmodernism in a nutshell.

(Or, a nutsack...The problem is that a lot of us here don't want the nutsack, either.)

A-1