Please believe me, I have thought long and hard before posting this message, but I feel compelled to do it, so here goes.

I am sure you all have heard of the recent Duke flub that resulted in a dead teenager, and for that I feel really badly; but as usual there are a lot of things you will never hear or see in the media.

I guess I have a little more information because my wife spent five years on the transplant team at Duke. Thank God she was no longer there when this horrible event happens, because when something like that occurs it is all about finding a fall guy, not correcting the problem.

The fall guy in this instance is Dr. Jaggers, the surgeon who performed the transplant. He has been identified very clearly as the one at fault, the one who made the mistake. Well, his acceptance of the blame is to his credit, but that is not the whole story.

My wife knows Dr. Jagger, has assisted in his surgeries. She tells me that he is one of the most caring, meticulous surgeons she has ever known. She said that the matching process at Duke was very definintely flawed. My wife, as head of the nursing team during those procedures, had the responsibilty of preventing accidents such as what happened to Jessica, but her hands were tied because the information she needed re: blood types, etc, was held by a totally separate department. So what the news media are reporting that Dr. Jager "assumed," that the heart was a match, was all the information that was available to him. And now the career of a very capable, caring and valuable surgeon is ruined. It is extremely doubtful that Dr. Jaggers will ever be trusted again.

And then there's Jessica, the so-called victim of this whole fiasco.

What about Jessica?

Did you all know that she was an illegal alien from Mexico?

Did you all know that her family had paid a professional "importer" to get her into the country illegally?

Did you all know that after it was all over, after she had bypassed all those waiting for a transplant, not once, but twice, that after she died her new heart and lungs could have been re-used, but the family refused to allow her organs to be used, even though they were not hers to begin with?

Did you know it takes a Canadian who is well qualified to work productively in this country an average of seven years to become a legal resident, while Mexicans come into the country by the hundreds every day and then demand rights as if the'd lived here all their lives.

I'm sorry, folks, it's just a favorite rant of mine, irritated this weekend by the fact that a good surgeon's career has been ruined by a surgery that probably should never have happened in the first place.

OK, I feel better now. I'll be ok, honest!

[

Charlieje (imported) wrote: Mon Feb 24, 2003 4:36 pm OK, I feel better now. I'll be ok, honest!

Charlie, I support your position.

Post deleted by Moderator.

Max,

The tone of your reply is totally uncalled for.

Your rant is the very antithesis of what Charlie is saying.

The fact is, Jessica was here illegally, yes she got medical care that many, many hard-working US citizens can't get.

Have you ever seen the film "JOHN Q"? It happens, believe me. No insurance, no money, no treatment.

I'm sorry, but if Jessica had been a legal US resident with no ins. or money, she would have DIED and NO transplant would have been done. She would have been sent away with the story, "Oh well, sorry kid."

This whole transplant fiasco was uncalled for.

Does this mean I can waltz right into another country and demand care and get it? I doubt it. Now, come to think of it, very probably at that, two other people - perhaps legal US citizens will die because of this. We need to start taking care of our own BEFORE we worry about everyone else.

That's the whole problem with most US policies - we're too damn worried about the problems of everyone else EXCEPT for OUR OWN people. That's those of us who WORK and pay the bills with our tax dollars.

Well, at least I know how MY tax money was wasted this time.

I'm sorry, folks, but illegal aliens have NO right to ANY care in this country - regardless of race. I don't care WHERE she came from, or what color she was. If she was an illegal Russian, German, even Japanese, forget it - no money, no care. Live like the rest of us, then.

Also, Max, if you can't control your passions in a constructive and eloquent manner, don't bother posting again. I think you owe Charlie and the rest of the Boards an apology.

Thank you.

Charlie,

You’ve opened an important topic, though one that probably needs to be placed before a different audience than the one here on the Archive. It’s NOT a question of right vs. left, bleeding-heart-liberals vs. Limbaugh reactionaries.

We are a nation of immigrants and probably ought to continue to accept peoples from around the world. That’s, of course, the way we got you. It’s the way my ancestors arrived from a dozen countries.

The questions are

(1) how MANY people can the U.S. hold comfortably (i.e., the ideal carrying capacity of the land),

(2) who should we accept (educated, politically persecuted, economic refugees, any family member of one already here, etc.), and

(3) should we be able to control our borders and make conscious decisions, rather than letting in anyone who can find a way in (legally or not).

The environmental movement is currently very badly split over question #1. The Sierra Club may split asunder over it. Certainly we are currently mining our topsoil and depleting our fossil water reserves at an unsustainable pace. Can technology save us, or do we need to look at population control as part of the solution? The American Farm Bureau Federation has done a straight-line projection of current trends and stated, that if nothing changes, the U.S. will not be able to feed itself in about 50 years. They don’t take sides, just point out the problem.

Question #2 is widely debated in many fora. I recently participated in very nearly violent debate over whether or not an uneducated, unskilled West African girl should be allowed immigrant status because she feared ritual genital mutilation if she were returned to her country. Should she be allowed immigrant status? Should she be allowed in before or after a Punjabi with a PhD in computer science who will bring his wife and large extended family? What about political refugees, with or without valuable skills?

Question #3 is strongly debated in the Southwest. Should we try to close our border with Mexico and allow in ONLY those who are pre-approved, or ought we to throw open the border completely and let in anyone who walks or drives across? There are local civilians who go out on dark nights with guns and lights to intercept illegal immigrants in order to "aid the Border Patrol." There are those who go out and try to help them past the checkpoints.

This is a very important debate and the future of our society depends on the decisions we make. I think it belongs elsewhere, though.

If I may jump in here, Jesus,

JesusA (imported) wrote: Mon Feb 24, 2003 9:23 pm You’ve opened an important topic, though one that probably needs to be placed before a different audience than the one here on the Archive. I

don't know why this isn't as appropriate a forum as any other, especially this section, which is dedicated to non-eunuch topics. Personally, I think it should be discussed and debated anywhere possible. It's that important.

JesusA (imported) wrote: Mon Feb 24, 2003 9:23 pm We are a nation of immigrants and probably ought to continue to accept peoples from around the world. That’s, of course, the way we got you. It’s the way my ancestors arrived from a dozen countries.

Quite true, but for the most part, our ancestors came here during a time when this country desperately needed the people, when there were severe labor shortages. That's no longer true. To fail to change policy out of some misguided sense of tradition would seem foolish, no?

JesusA (imported) wrote: Mon Feb 24, 2003 9:23 pm The American Farm Bureau Federation has done a straight-line projection of current trends and stated, that if nothing changes, the U.S. will not be able to feed itself in about 50 years. They don’t take sides, just point out the problem.

Of course, they're taking a position by just making that statement, in view of the fact that 50 years ago, the identical prediction was made, and we have more food available now per capita than we did then. I don't think this is an issue of carrying capacity, but one of economic common sense and a need to maintain stability through some commonality of culture.

W

JesusA (imported) wrote: Mon Feb 24, 2003 9:23 pm ho should we accept (educated, politically persecuted, economic refugees, any family member of one already here, etc.)?

I don't know about you, but I'm all for actually enforcing the law that requires immigrants to be either sufficiently well-off to sustain themselves for two years, or else have someone here who is a citizen or permanent resident who will guarantee to provide for them, should they have financial difficulties during that time. Other considerations are irrelevant, unless a private, charitable organization here considers them important enough to put up the money.

S

JesusA (imported) wrote: Mon Feb 24, 2003 9:23 pm hould we be able to control our borders and make conscious decisions, rather than letting in anyone who can find a way in (legally or not)?

Absolutely! The important thing, to me, is that the taxpayers' money not be spent on non-citizens. Nobody should be able to come here solely for the benefits doled out by government when they have no other stake in the country. Perhaps some of our European friends can comment on how their governments handle such things, but I can think of no other place where someone can enter completely undocumented and without permission, and still obtain hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of medical care, all for free.

Sci-fi author Robert Heinlein had a term for it: TANSTAAFL. That translates to There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch. In other words, someone's always got to pay. To me, the problem isn't that we as a wealthy nation shouldn't pay to help those less fortunate. It's that what we pay should be paid of our own individual free wills and priorities, and not coerced by a government seeking to sustain its power.

As soon as the the lawers get through with this case the famley of this girl will be well off enough to buy thair citizenship and still have millions to spend on any thing thay may want.Good post Charlije.

How quaint and curious. Someone can ramble on with racist untruths, but when a visitor to the boards is insulted and angered and responds to it, his post is deleted. Sad.

But since Paolo demands politeness (except when attacking Mexican-Americans), let me be polite and counter some of the untruths (Lies too strong a word Paolo?) presented here.

1. Jesica was here on a medical visa. Check your facts. A significant number of people receiving transplants at our local teaching hospital are foreign nationals.

2. Jesica's visit was arranged by a third party. Like my last visit to Mexico was arranged by a third party, called a "travel agent." And she had insurance. Check your facts. Hers is a comfortable middle class family.

3. Anyone who believes there is no labor shortage in America needs to check the facts. There is a tremendous labor shortage FOR THE MENIAL JOBS AMERICANS WON'T DO. Eat an apple today? Mexicans in Washinton State or Pennsylvania picked it, because the American teenagers who used to pick fruit are too lazy to take those jobs.

4. Now that most food is grown by giant AgriBusinesses, Corporate America demands a steady supply of cheap Mexican labor. Check the workers at any Tyson's chicken or Hormel beef plant. All Mexicans, because the corporations won't pay a decent wage. (Except to the corporate big shots. Ken Lay made enough in one week in 2000 to pay for Jesica's medical costs.)

5. You can't walk into another country and demand medical care? My niece came down with hepatitis in London while a student there. The national health service provided for all her care including weekly followup visits from nurses. A friend fell and broke his leg in Germany; the national health service covered all, from the ambulance to the cast. It's called "universal health care" and every industrialized country in the world has it except South Africa and the US.

6. Canadians become "Americans" faster than Mexicans (the implication here is that Mexicans are lazy, stupid or both). Sure they do. Canadians all finish high school, most come here with some college. Most Mexicans have to leave school after grade 6 to work to support their families.

7. I love the comment that "MY ancestors came here legally." Well, that depends on what "legal" means. Any Cubano who builds a raft and floats to Key West is greeted with delight by our government. Any Mexican who wades the Rio Grande to work and support a family back in Jalisco is packed up and sent home. FOR THE RECORD: My mother's family came here in the late 1600's, my father's in 1830. If anyone gets to complain about "immigrants" it should be me. (Ignoring, of course, that the family farm was established on land belonging to the Seneca and Delaware tribes. Isn't it fun to pick and choose your facts ??) And another fun fact: Mom's family was a bunch of religious fanatics chased out of both Denmark AND England. When they weren't ranting about God's Vengence, I doubt that any of them had the skills to plant a potato.

8. Ever consider that one of the big reasons mistakes like that transplant mixup happens might be the dramatic reduction in federal funds to teaching hospitals like Duke?

9. Another outright untruth: That the second organs transplanted into Jesica could have been re-used and the family vetoed it. Organs are NEVER used a second time. Besides, the local coroner is doing an autopsy in this case. You cannot tamper with a body prior to an autopsy AND THAT INCLUDES ORGAN DONATION. Check your facts.

10. My cousin is an RN in the Duke I.C.U. and says that transplant surgeon is a fine fellow. And a mistake was made that could have been avoided. I guess none of us have ever made a small mistake that turned out to have big consequences.

It is suggested that I owe Charlieje an apology. I never apologize to racists, and if his anti-latino comments are not racist, I'll eat your hat.

If the moderators are so concerned about people's sensibilities, and the tone of postings, why is an anti-latino diatribe full of untruths allowed to remain posted?

Frankly, I think this whole thread from start to finish should be deleted. The kind of nonsense that Charlieje starts it with has no place here. And I'm saddened that so many people think it does.

Max.

p.s. re my comments about the South: I've been there. I stand by them.

Max,

......

Paolo wrote: Mon Feb 24, 2003 9:04 pm The fact is, Jessica was here illegally, yes she got medical care that many, many hard-working US citizens can't get.

......

I'm sorry, but if Jessica had been a legal US resident with no ins. or money, she would have DIED and NO transplant would have been done. She would have been sent away with the story, "Oh well, sorry kid."

......

That's the whole problem with most US policies - we're too damn worried about the problems of everyone else EXCEPT for OUR OWN people. That's those of us who WORK and pay the bills with our tax dollars.

Well, at least I know how MY tax money was wasted this time.

I'm sorry, folks, but illegal aliens have NO right to ANY care in this country - regardless of race.

And now the family's lawyers are planning to sue the doctors and hospital for millions. NOTHING FAIR ABOUT THAT!

As my sons would say, “we let you in and look what you did to our land”. I guess the people see it a bit different then you do. When I say People that is what the white man calls Indians.

But that is all a bit off subject,

Yes our boarders should be open to the Mexico, for they are the one group of people that will do the jobs the white man wont. Mexicans that come over are looking for work, and work, manual labor. We have always had jobs for these people. Would it not be better to issue them a ID card and help them get one of these jobs that no one else wants.

As for Charlie’s post that started this, I think the whole thing is very sad for all parties. Only the legal eagles live in a perfect world, the rest of us our human.

RACE: There is only one race, Human. We come in all colors, with different backgrounds but once you look under the skin we are all the same.