I was reading the thread "I am upset"

http://www.eunuch.org/vbulletin/showthr ... eadid=1932

I read some things that I greatly disagreed with, but didn't feel it was pertinent to respond in that thread.

Paolo, I think, mentioned that he thought hate crimes were more prevalent than ever.

I have to admit that I disagree. Hear me out on this.

I believe that if there are more hate crimes than ever, then it is simply because we have more people now, than ever. I don't believe the actual percentage of crime that is hate crime has increased, or the percentage of people in the populace that would commit hate crime have increased.

What I do believe is that society, in particular, American society, is more open to dealing with hate crime for what it is.

Attitudes, in America, in particular, have changed greatly in the last 40-20 years on subjects like this.

Case in point, in 1983, I was in high school, and started dating this girl. Wonderful girl, pretty, great body, cute face, glorious blonde hair, and a fiery personality ... all of the above turned me on. She was great! We had a great relationship. I just couldn't understand something. There were certain things that I couldn't do with her, when we were alone, parking, that every other girl I had ever been with, no matter how chaste or "churchey", had allowed. We could "neck" for hours, and she loved it. My hands could touch her anywhere, unless I got near an erogneous area, then she became a screaming, slapping banshee ... even after we had been going out for 6 months! I couldn't figure it out.

To make matters worse, my parents hated her. They went out of their way to keep us apart. They gave me crap, almost from day one, for seeing this girl.

After I broke up with her, my mother came clean on all of this.

They had found out that she was molested about 4 years before I dated her. It had even gone to trial.

My folks figured, that since she had been molested she would be some kind of slut/nympho, and that she would ... I don't know, what they thought, the conversation became an inarticulate mess after that.

I guess what I am saying is today, my old girlfriend would not be viewed as some kind of "superslut", she would be seen for what she was ... a victim. One who was still dealing with all of that crap when I dated her. I just hope, now, almost 20 years later, that the guy she ended up marrying recognizes the treasure he has.

This instance from my life illustrates what I think is going on now, in our society. My girlfriend would be seen as victim, today. Not a threat.

Even a few years ago, depending where you were, it would have been "the uppity nigger, kike, papist, wetback, fag, homo, queer, ...whatever, got what they deserved", and that would have been the quote from the local law enforcement before they closed the case. AND IT WOULD HAVE BEEN BURIED.

That's not the way it is now.

Are we where we ought to be, yet? No. But! We are making progress. Things are changing.

In 1920, black men were being lynched for looking "wrong" at white women, and no one, unless you were black, was saying anything. In the 1960's, if a black man was lynched for anything, it made national news and there was a public outcry.

For the TG, cross dressing, and the gay, we are, finally, as a society, in the same place we were for the African American 40 years ago.

Is it right? No.

Is it getting better? Yes.

Are there better days ahead? I think so. If people like me, and I am very hetero, continue to stand with you (the TG, cross dressing, and gay), then better days are coming. They are something for all of us to hope and work for.

I believe in the Declaration of Independence, and the Constitution. However, all too often, to get the rights guaranteed by those things, you have to fight for them.

Putting on a uniform, and swearing an oath, is easy. It's exteranal. I've done that. I do that every day.

It's those battles that don't involve uniforms, and oaths, that matter. Those are the ones that are most difficult.

Convincing someone that slavery, Nazism, Communism, and the Holocaust are evil, is relatively simple.

Convincing someone that relegating someone to second class citizenship ... that you shouldn't commit a crime against them simply because of who they are ... that get's more difficult.

But, we are making progress.

All of this was to say, that the simple fact that we have these dialogues about hate crimes, child molestation, etc. , represents a great stride forward for our country. Let's be thankful that in this issue, as in most others, we have remained true to our character. To be better than we were.

In that same spirit, while I think we should be grateful for where we are today, and how much better it is than it was before, we should remain true to our national character.

What do I mean?

Make tomorrow a better day than today. Find new and better ways to fullfil the promises in the Declaration of Independence, Constituion, and the words inscribed on the base of the Statue of Liberty.

Afterall, aren't those ideals antithetical to hate crimes?

Just MHO,

The Big Sarge

Sarge,

I don’t see much disagreement between the original thread and what you say here. You have put it together in one connected argument and have stated all of it more clearly than most of us did in the original. As I read Paolo, he isn’t saying that there is MORE prejudice today, but that he sees it beginning at an earlier age. With modern media coming into every living room, he may be right. I certainly didn’t encounter it in my own life until 2nd or 3rd grade - before that we were just kids. Then we began to separate along ethnic lines (with a lot of pushing from adults to do so).

Regardless, we all do need to do our best to counter the prejudice that is out there in society. From your essay, I know that you are certainly doing your part.

Jesus

As Jesus points out, I think it has to do a lot with the constant media bombardment. We even have cellular phones now that can surf the net and take and send small pictures. We are more connected, more informed, more aware ... and more __________. (Insert favorite adjective here.)

As far as this being a good thing, I don't know. I seem to recall seeing the evening news when I was a kid, back in the early, early 70's and I don't recall such carryings-on as we see today. Tragic headlines and stories make ratings, though, they're sensational, and they sell. Perhaps that's why we feel as if hate crimes and such are on the rise.

Perhaps they're not; we're just better informed of almost every single one of them now.

I overstated my point(s), in some ways.

First, to address Jesus (man, that feels weird to type that! ... forgive my fundamentalist roots): I don't think it is pushed at an earlier age. My parents grew up in rural north eastern Arkansas in the late 40's and through the 50's. I have heard their stories, and those of my grandparents. My parents knew that "white was right" before they went to 1st grade. They grew out of that, but that was what they had been indoctrinated with. Both of my grandfathers were telling "N-word" jokes (I absolutely HATE that word, and it was pure torture typing it in my original message, I just couldn't find a way to express what I thought without using it) well into their 80's ... meaning the 1990's.

Secondly, to address Paolo: Okay, some of this is sensationional, now. That is part of the point. For my grandfather, lynching a black man after having CONSENSUAL sex with a white woman, was just what you do. Kind of like washing your hands after using the bathroom. It wasn't sensational. It wasn't even noteworthy in a small town newspaper, much less the equivalent of CNN.

To put it in terms of the original thread, 30 years ago, if a man was beaten nearly to death for just walking out of a gay bar, whether he was gay or not, it would not have been "news", in any fashion. Today, that would be a headline, with a bullet, on CNN.

Things have changed.

The Big Sarge

With all due respect to SSG Lingus...

In regard to the first post in this thread, I must say that Judy Shepard, the Alumi of the University of Wyoming (myself included there) and the court system in Albany County, WY (Laramie, WY) would disagree that hate crimes are not on the rise.

You don't beat a man within an inch of his life just because he looked at you the wrong way and leave him for dead on a snow fence in sub-freezing weather, and believe that it is not a hate crime. Especially when those people knew young Matthew Shephard was gay.

In the US in 2002, Homesexuals are the only group it is STILL LEGAL to ostracize. I guess eveyone has to have someone to hate... even those people who fought so hard in the 1950's and 1960's to integrate schools, etc. Even a large portion of the people who benefitted from the civil rights movement find it perfectly acceptable to discriminate against homosexuals. This includes Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.'s own children.

You can disagree with the above, but I think it is valid. Both of us being Americans we are entitled to our opinions.

--LT

The U.S. is a big country, and there is clearly a great deal of geographical variation involved here, as well as the temporal variation we’ve been talking about.

I’m sure, though, that every member of the Archive would agree that hate crimes are still a serious problem, and I’m certain that all of us are doing our best to educate others to try to reduce their frequency.

I could certainly lay out in excruciating detail the ethnic changes and rapid population growth that completely changed the area where I grew up in the 1950s. Inter-ethnic relations changed dramatically within the space of only a few years - all for the worse!

Where to start?

Let me say, first, that I agree with Jesus (weird feeling, again, see orignal post). Hate crimes are deplorable. Crime, in and of itself, is deplorable, but to seek someone out, and plan to commit a crime, especially a violent one, against them, simply because of who they are(pick your ethnicity, sexual orientation, hair color, etc., I don't care what your bias is!), is despicable.

This may sound odd, coming from someone that has served in the US Armed Forces for over 13 years, but I hate violence.

I am not trying to say that what was done to Matthew Shepard was not a hate crime. It was. The fact that hate crimes still go on in our country is a travesty. The fact that homosexuals are not covered by the Hate Crimes Law in our country is a travesty.

I am not going to argue that with you. Why? Because almost every word of "dissent" to my posts on this subject have been close to the exact words that I have used to argue the exact same points with others over the last few years.

We are not in disagreement. (Okay, Losethem, this is where I am singleing you out, here.) I agree with you in every point you make.

Except one thing.(Which I will get to in a bit)

From what I have seen, the percentage of the general populace of the USA that are willing to tolerate what we, now, know as hate crimes is on the decrease. The sheer volume of what we, now, define as hate crimes(those committed against homosexuals are in the overall numbers) are on the decrease, even though our populace is increasing in number.

The fact that we now have a concept of "hate crime" is a radical step forward from where we were two generations ago. (My grandfathers didn't have it. Couldn't understand it, before they died.)

Does that mean hate crimes are no longer a part of the American culture?

Does this make any single hate crime more acceptable?

Does this mean we should not continue to work for a hate crime-free America?

The answer to all of the above is "No, of course not!"

That was not the point of the original post. The original post was about the fact that we are getting better, as a country. Not that we were doing well, or whatever. Simply that we were moving forward, not stagnating, or moving backward.

The fact that we have a cultural concept that can be called "hate crimes" is a step that, even two generations ago, our country could not have made.

The fact that our country is now in a place to call those criminals to be responsible for their actions is something that would not ... could not have happened in our recent past.

Am I saying that all is right with America?

CERTAINLY NOT! That wasn't the point.

I was just saying that progress is being made. We aren't where we should be, yet, but we are working on getting there.

We are still "growing up" as a country. We are the "young kids" in the international community. Britain, as a country, for instance, has existed, at least, since 1066. France dates back farther, and if you get into some of the Asian countries, then all the European countries are newcomers.

Keep in mind that the man who, eventually, would become our third president, wrote "All men are created equal" 13 years before we became the country we are now. He, also, wrote it 87 years before our 16th President came to the conclusion that, for what he (Jefferson) wrote to be true, he would HAVE to free the slaves.

I'm not saying things are "fixed". I am saying that we are moving forward in the process of fixing them.

SSG Linus

would seem to focus on what got and what gets reported. We don't lynch folks today, but we do still murder people because of our differences. Or we murder people to intimidate other people.

Then there seems to be a lot of domestic violence within gaya communities. I lived in New Orleans for twelve years and witnessed at least some of this violence.

SSGLinus (imported) wrote: Wed Dec 18, 2002 5:41 am I'm not saying things are "fixed". I am saying that we are moving forward in the process of fixing them.

And then there is the strange case of Trent Lott.

He would have been better off had he taken Strom Thurmond's wheelchair and pulled a Susan Smith with it.

He should have "pooped" that party. Now the Republican "party" is going to "poop" on him.

"...I am old farm boy. It never made me unhappy when the chickens came home to roost..." Malcolm X

A-1

I'd agree with plenty of what is being said here. I suppose back in the 1940's there was no concept of hate crime. It doesn't mean that it wasn't going on, what with the lynchings and what not.

There have been things throughout history that were called by one thing during a particular era and then something else in another. For example, gay used to mean happy. Now it means something else entirely. The word gay is a 3 letter combination that is banned on California license plates, though I almost purchased a 1956 California license plate that had the word GAY as part of it's assigned 3 letter 3 number configuration.

So as time passes the existence of things may not change, but what they are called will.

Thanks for having a nice discourse and discussion. It's a refreshing change to have disagreement with someone but be able to respect one anothers views.

--LT