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Be careful of Lithium Batteries!!!
Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2024 6:40 pm
by WheelyFixed
You've probably heard it before, but I can say the risk is REAL and the failures are seriously scary....
I was about to head home from the makerspace that I'm a member of, but wanted to hit the bathroom first.... As I was heading there I fortunately saw that another member's electric scooter was just starting to catch fire... This was seriously lucky, as if I'd gone earlier I would have missed it, and later it would have been even worse....
I was able to drag the flaming scooter away from the wooden structures it was leaning on, and get it into the middle of the concrete aisle, then pull the fire-box, and wait for the guys with the red trucks and funny hats to show up and deal with it....
I also got to watch the flying debris coming out every minute or so as each cell in the pack exploded.
A fire extinguisher will NOT put one of these fires out! All you can really do is let it burn and try to keep the fire from spreading....
Fortunately other than smoke and stink, we had no damage, and I've been getting thanks from other members all day -
(Who says it takes balls to fight a fire?
)
According to the scooter owner, it was fully charged, but NOT plugged in... He said it didn't work when he went to use it to go home, so he left it, planning to diagnose the failure in the morning...
So be careful - if your lithium battery powered thing doesn't work right, put it outside! Don't charge if unattended and watch, etc..
WheelyFixed
Re: Be careful of Lithium Batteries!!!
Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2024 7:00 pm
by Valery_V (imported)
WheelyFixed wrote: Wed Jan 31, 2024 6:40 pm
You've probably heard it before, but I can say the risk is REAL and the failures are seriously scary....
I was about to head home from the makerspace that I'm a member of, but wanted to hit the bathroom first.... As I was heading there I fortunately saw that another member's electric scooter was just starting to catch fire... This was seriously lucky, as if I'd gone earlier I would have missed it, and later it would have been even worse....
I was able to drag the flaming scooter away from the wooden structures it was leaning on, and get it into the middle of the concrete aisle, then pull the fire-box, and wait for the guys with the red trucks and funny hats to show up and deal with it....
I also got to watch the flying debris coming out every minute or so as each cell in the pack exploded.
A fire extinguisher will NOT put one of these fires out! All you can really do is let it burn and try to keep the fire from spreading....
Fortunately other than smoke and stink, we had no damage, and I've been getting thanks from other members all day -
(Who says it takes balls to fight a fire?
)
According to the scooter owner, it was fully charged, but NOT plugged in... He said it didn't work when he went to use it to go home, so he left it, planning to diagnose the failure in the morning...
So be careful - if your lithium battery powered thing doesn't work right, put it outside! Don't charge if unattended and watch, etc..
WheelyFixed
I always admire you and your self-control!
Just in case, here is the following article:
"Lithium Battery Fires: 10 Safety Tips for Fire Prevention"
1. Only buy batteries that are from reputable manufactures.
2. Do not charge non-rechargeable batteries.
3. Keep batteries away from high temperatures.
4. Do not keep batteries on a charger once the charging cycle is completed.
5. Only charge batteries when you are home or present to monitor the process.
6. Use only the charger that came with the battery or a battery that is listed by the manufacturer as compatible with the battery.
7. If possible, try to charge a battery in a fire-safe charging bag.
8. When storing an item with a lithium-ion battery, remove the battery from the item if possible.
9. Inspect batteries when they are first installed and after charging if possible. If you notice damage to the battery, do not recharge it.
10. If you feel excessive heat coming from the charging device, remove the item from the power source and place it away from and combustible items until it has cooled down. Call the fire department if needed. Replace the battery as soon as possible.
* * *
https://www.envistaforensics.com/knowle ... revention/
Re: Be careful of Lithium Batteries!!!
Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2024 8:16 pm
by Losethem (imported)
I'm presently driving a car with an 18.1 KwH battery. You think the fire on a scooter is potentially bad...
I'm confident in the safety. The particular manufacturer has been working this kind of thing for about 20 years now, and has a good track record.
Re: Be careful of Lithium Batteries!!!
Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2024 9:56 pm
by WheelyFixed
Losethem (imported) wrote: Wed Jan 31, 2024 8:16 pm
I'm presently driving a car with an 18.1 KwH battery. You think the fire on a scooter is potentially bad...
I'm confident in the safety. The particular manufacturer has been working this kind of thing for about 20 years now, and has a good track record.
There is a fellow in the United Spinal Assoc. that lost his home and pretty much everything but the clothes he was wearing due to an electric car fire in his garage, or at least that's what the investigators claimed as the cause... I've seen one going up on the roadside driving by, and it wasn't pretty.... That said, I've seen claims that the problem is less the batteries themselves than it is a failure in the BMS (Battery Management System) - most use FET's (Field Effect Transistor) and the usual failure mode on a FET is a short circuit...
WheelyFixed
WheelyFixed
Re: Be careful of Lithium Batteries!!!
Posted: Thu Feb 01, 2024 9:57 am
by Losethem (imported)
WheelyFixed wrote: Wed Jan 31, 2024 9:56 pm
There is a fellow in the United Spinal Assoc. that lost his home and pretty much everything but the clothes he was wearing due to an electric car fire in his garage, or at least that's what the investigators claimed as the cause... I've seen one going up on the roadside driving by, and it wasn't pretty.... That said, I've seen claims that the problem is less the batteries themselves than it is a failure in the BMS (Battery Management System) - most use FET's (Field Effect Transistor) and the usual failure mode on a FET is a short circuit...
WheelyFixed
WheelyFixed
I've never had a problem. This is the second vehicle like this I've had. This manufacturer leaves higher tolerances for charging than many others. I think the last one I had they nearly depleted the battery to get the entire range out of it, but this one isn't allowed to drop below about 25% charged before the gas engine turns on. The idea is to keep the electric traction system from overheating. I'm supposed to get about 40 miles on a charge (it's a plug-in hybrid, not full electric), but I tend to get closer to 50. Gas has to drop to below $2.50 per gallon (3.8L) before not using the electric motor at all becomes worth it.
Re: Be careful of Lithium Batteries!!!
Posted: Thu Feb 01, 2024 1:12 pm
by Conrad73 (imported)
Learning about field effect transistors…
I have a 5000w LiFEPO4 battery that I use to run a big split phase pure sine wave inverter for appliances and tools etc. Off grid. It has a fancy computerized BMS. I also have a 100amp fuse and true disconnect hooked up to it just in case. From what I understand most fire come from BMS failure resulting in over charging.
One thing to research is the chemical formulation of the batteries. I was told that my liFEPO4 battery chemistry is stable at extremely high temperatures, there are different specific formulas used for lithium cells, some are safer than others.
Re: Be careful of Lithium Batteries!!!
Posted: Thu Feb 01, 2024 7:24 pm
by WheelyFixed
LiFePO4 is definitely the safest of the lithium technologies, in part because none of the steps in the charge / discharge cycle result in metallic lithium, which is what gives the really bad chemical reaction problems... The downside is that while still far better than lead bricks, it is the worst for power density.
It is far from scientific testing, but if you search on You-tube, you will find people doing all sorts of terrible things to LiFePO4 cells, WITHOUT getting bad fires. I've seen them shot w/ guns, crossbows, extreme overcharging, ripping apart in a vice, smashing them and so on, with either no fire or minimal 'normal' fuel flames, (seemingly more from the solvents burning) as opposed to the violent lithium reaction you get with the other sorts.
I am planning to do an LiFePO4 conversion on my power chair, which will give me 3-10X the range, depending on the cells I get, and 50% less battery weight... I feel safe doing that, but would never consider sitting on any other sort of lithium batteries - you can 'hand grenade' your cell phone and make it someone else's problem, but I can't bail out of my chair...
A lot of people have and drive various electric vehicles, and MOST don't have problems - it is just that when something goes wrong it can be really horrendously BAD...
WheelyFixed
Re: Be careful of Lithium Batteries!!!
Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2024 3:08 am
by moi621 (imported)
Trust Hydrogen + Fuel Cells
Cheap fuel source.
Well managed it works
Lithium batteries explode too!
Moi :
Re: Be careful of Lithium Batteries!!!
Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2024 3:52 pm
by WheelyFixed
moi621 (imported) wrote: Tue Feb 06, 2024 3:08 am
Trust Hydrogen + Fuel Cells
Cheap fuel source.
Well managed it works
Lithium batteries explode too!
Moi :
The flaming scooter certainly did a lot of exploding - it was like watching fireworks as it would go BANG and shoot out more flaming debris every few seconds as another cell let go... I suspect, based on what gets used commonly, that the scooter pack was a bunch of 18650 cells, which are a Lithium-Cobalt based chemistry (this is what they mean most of the time when you see "Li-Ion" in the description) which will burn but are less hazardous than LiPo (Lithium Polymer) which have amazing power density and will go off like a bomb with very little provocation....
Hydrogen is useful as a fuel, but has two problems that IMHO make it seriously scary -
1. It is VERY hard to make and maintain a 'Hydrogen proof' seal.... The small molecule size of H2 lets it seep through many materials including those used for other fuel gasses that have larger molecules...
2. A hydrogen flame is almost invisible, so it is very easy to get into an H2 flame without realizing it's there - burns, ignition of clothing, etc....
WheelyFixed
Re: Be careful of Lithium Batteries!!!
Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2024 10:54 am
by erikboy (imported)
LiFePO4 is much more stable chemistry of course, but the downside is it's low energy density compared to other Li chemistries. LiFePO4 is around 100Wh per kg. While some other chemistries can reach up to 260Wh per kg. Thus LiFe PO4 is not preferred in weight sensitive vehicles.
Hydrogen technologies, although they existed long before Li-Ion batteries were invented, are dead. There are multiple small reasons why. But it laws of physics dictate many. Like density of hydrogen. It is the least dense substance on the earth. To store the same amount of energy stored in methane or natural gas you need 3,5 time larger volume. Generally it is expenseve and wasteful to store energy in hydrogen.
Also it is wasteful to hydrolyze water, then store hydrogen and through fuel cell get back electricity. If you put 100% electricity in, you will get only 30% at output if all losses are taken into account. Not speaking of all the fance infrastructure needed for that and precious metals used in catalysts.
)