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Age of Transition

Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2023 9:02 pm
by Nicholas (imported)
How young do you guys think kids should be able to transition medically/surgically?

Re: Age of Transition

Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2023 9:19 pm
by Valery_V (imported)
Nicholas (imported) wrote: Tue Aug 01, 2023 9:02 pm How young do you guys think kids should be able to transition medically/surgically?

In my opinion, under normal living conditions and with proper upbringing, healthy young people should not develop gender dysphoria syndrome.

Re: Age of Transition

Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2023 10:14 pm
by WheelyCurious
Nicholas (imported) wrote: Tue Aug 01, 2023 9:02 pm How young do you guys think kids should be able to transition medically/surgically?

Tough question; all the answers have problems...

There is the observed phenomenon that some kids 'grow out of it' and decide that they don't want to transition after all, and hopefully they haven't started anything irreversible....

At the same time the changes that come w/ puberty are problematic for doing a convincing transition later...

Puberty also comes way before any 'age of consent' that I know of, and the mental health folks say a kid's brain isn't sufficiently developed to make good choices until (or after?) that age...

So no matter what sort of decision you make, it has aspects that will bite you

My personal opinion is that the current protocol in the SOC v8 seems like the best middle ground of wanting to see the kid do a lengthy successful 'social transition', possibly with the use of 'puberty blockers' to prevent / delay those changes to get as much chance to mature before doing anything permanent beyond that...

I somewhat disagree w/ Valery, in that while ideally well brought up, healthy kids wouldn't develop a desire to transition, the simple fact is that they do, in even the best of family situations.... So we need to be able to deal with it as best we can. (I have a great deal of sympathy for the parents of those kids that are likely going to be going through a lot of 'what did we do wrong' angst, not to mention dealing with the entire transition process...)

WheelyCurious

Re: Age of Transition

Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2023 12:29 am
by fhunter
Nicholas (imported) wrote: Tue Aug 01, 2023 9:02 pm How young do you guys think kids should be able to transition medically/surgically?

Medically... it's complicated. Human brain continues to develop till about 25 or so. Problem is - puberty starts waaay earlier, and it brings serious problems with it. Problems which will be painful and difficult (or impossible) to fix later.

So - we have puberty blockers, which aren't really a good solution, but at least they give time for brain to mature.

Surgically - there is 18 as age of consent, which is as good age as any. If society allows for the kid to enlist in the army at this age and get killed - why prevent surgery?

Re: Age of Transition

Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2023 1:06 am
by Valery_V (imported)
The question raised by Nicholas is very complex.

I expressed a too banal abstract thought, in real life, in fact, this is not always the case.

I am very glad that thanks to our site I have the opportunity to communicate with friends and wish them success in realizing their dreams with minimal risk to their health!

I am delighted with the results of the current WPATH SOC v8 research.

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10 ... 22.2100644

Re: Age of Transition

Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2023 3:57 am
by erikboy (imported)
Nicholas (imported) wrote: Tue Aug 01, 2023 9:02 pm How young do you guys think kids should be able to transition medically/surgically?

Now this is a very good question. I have spent hours and days and weeks and months thinking about it. And so far it seems, there is no good solution. The answer lies in the brain!

First, my personal observation tells me that if transition is allowed without consultation for teens or preteens at first request we might end up in a problem later. quite a lot of people who have transitioned realize after transition that transition was not the right solution. I have been watching many transyoutubers since their teens. I have seen their suffering from dysphoria which is especially difficult to see how kids suffer under dysphoria. For most transition has been the life saving solution when they finally get it. But then, there was one f to m transyoutuber who after transition 4y later decided for detransition. She said that she is not entirely happy in female body either, but it felt better than male body and testosterone. Now she is a happy mother of a small boy.

So go get, what is right!

Recently, in last 10 years I have observed great surge in f to m teens. Me personally, I know them all. For some strange reason, I haven't met personally any m to f teen yet. The question is again, why this kind of dysphoria spreads or is more visible among young females? This question need some answers. None of them have fully transitioned yet, nor have plans for real transition. Despite some of them are well past 18.

Why I haven't seen m to f teens yet? It might be that these people are more hidden. As society does not react much on girls wearing boy clothes. Just my empiric observations.

In my case, I became aware of my homosexual part right before puberty, but I thought that it was just a "phase" like it was written in some sex educational books I had access to. But I never wanted or desired to be a MAN. Which for me meant to have large genitals, hairy body, be manly and wear manly clothes. I hated suits, ties, hats, men coats. When puberty started, I really hated changes, especially getting hair on my body. I remember that I searched ways to stop my puberty at 13. And since then I allways dreamt about getting some disease that would destroy my testicles. But you know, I still hoped that I was in a "phase", so I floated along with puberty as it happened. At around 15 the desire to get rid of my balls grew so bad that I started to abuse them. I invented all kind of ways to do that. Sex drive was a constant nuisance for me. I had even wetdreams how my balls came off for some strange reason and put them in the freezer, in the case I needed them later :) So I think that if I had all the information and experience I have now, and someone supportive around, I would have transitioned to eunuch right then without hesitation. But I was in illusion that I was in some sort of "phase" and hoped to turn "normal" in all aspects.

So, there is a danger that you decide to transition under influence of successfully transitioned friends or youtubers, while your problem lies elsewhere. And there is a danger that you might hold back your transition thinking that you are in some sort of phase and you can be "normal".

As much as I have read about brain function. Our higher brain function (neocortex) is capable supress our more lower or ancient brain functions by quite remarkable degrees. That is why brain must be studied first, before any transition, to find out wether gender dysphoria is real and stems from lower brain functions (perceived gender is real) or it stems from neocortex (source of detransitions). In first case transition must be started right away without hesitation. Latter case other ways to solve gender problem must be seeked.

I don't know it that makes sense, but this is what I think about transition age.

Re: Age of Transition

Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2023 5:00 am
by wanasoso2 (imported)
A very good question indeed. And good comments have been already expressed. We have to keep in mind that "real" gender dysphoria exist and also that now a days the influence of a "fashion" to see dysphoria everywhere also exist. The real one is rare no surprise that in recent scientific litterture on human sexual behavior there is numerous paper devoted to the situation lived by detransitonning individuals. As mentionned before homonaly speaking transitioning is easier to do with puberty blokers but then this is done on an individual that is easily influenceable. I would like to be the practioner assisting such young people in a such complex decision.

In most society m to f is much more frequent compare to f to m (the exception is in Iran) This is mainly observed as a possible consequence that generally there is more man not in phase with their gender compare to women. Actually women are more expensive is many aspect of personnal and social life. Their sexuality is more equilibrated between their genitals, hormones, feeling and brain. Men we do have the same but it is more oriented in the genitals that have to perform for the sexual reproduction. Maybe not all men are in phase with this obligation.

Erikboy mention an important point as "the problem may lies elsewhere" and this could be true for many men not really in phase with their sexuality. When one is socially programed to think to much in the binary system man/women when you don't feal good about yourself you may think that transition is the solution but human gender and wellbeing is much more complex. We have to accept all the inbetween situation and find a way to express them in our day to day living.

While liking skirt and women clothing I found a special study; The psychology of clothes by John Carl Flügel (1933) explaining the great renonciation when men decided, around the revolution periods, to dress simply leaving the make up, wigs, corset, high heals and colors exclusively to women. Since those time I think that many men feel more empty, less expressed in their inner feeling while living side by side with their human female conterpart that could live with all the possible choice of clothing or else.

A question about the age... Wow, how complex when we already live in a world that do not leave enough space for the individual to expressed itself entirely. I guess that if men could be much more closer to women under many aspects like clothing and else there would be much more equilibrium, happiness and less violence against women too.

Re: Age of Transition

Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2023 8:39 am
by Losethem (imported)
Nicholas (imported) wrote: Tue Aug 01, 2023 9:02 pm How young do you guys think kids should be able to transition medically/surgically?

I do not believe there is a one size fits all age "requirement" for this. It has to be done under the care of appropriate physicians and a carefully selected (by the patient) care team. Parents should also be left to make the medical decisions for their children, not politicians.

It is a delicate issue and it should be addressed by the individual if they are age of majority, or the individual involving their parents if they are underage.

Re: Age of Transition

Posted: Sun Sep 17, 2023 5:56 am
by T van Keel (imported)
Losethem (imported) wrote: Wed Aug 02, 2023 8:39 am I do not believe there is a one size fits all age "requirement" for this. It has to be done under the care of appropriate physicians and a carefully selected (by the patient) care team. Parents should also be left to make the medical decisions for their children, not politicians.

It is a delicate issue and it should be addressed by the individual if they are age of majority, or the individual involving their parents if they are underage.

I totally agree. One thing in addition from my own experience. It's quite possible that I would have benefited from an early transition during my teenage days. The feeling that something was "wrong" was already present at this time. But today's possibilities weren't available in these days, so I couldn't identify a way to a possible solution. Simply due to lack of information. So I tried to live the life of a normal male, but that wasn't a pleasant life with all the body dysphoria. Even my early teenage brain had a growing feeling that I need to become a nullo. What age would have been right for my surgical transition? Don't know exactly, but if today's possibilities would have been available I most probably would have chosen to become a nullo as early as possible, probably not before 14, but quite sure before 18. To be clear, this is my experience and it is not meant to be a general recommendation. Nevertheless, young people often know best what is the right body for them.