The Duggar family, of the infamous TV show 19 Kids And Counting, has been under a good bit of scrutiny this past week after revelations that the oldest son sexually molested at least five young girls. Several outlets have noted in the past week that the Duggar family has been outspoken in its support of Bill Gothard’s home-schooling program, which includes lessons on sexual assault that blame and shame victims for their “immodesty” and for contributing to their own abuse.

A JPEG copy of a Gothard worksheet with ten points for counseling survivors of sexual abuse is on line at: http://www.salon.com/2015/05/26/how_the ... efs_create d_an_environment_that_fostered_child_sex_abuse/

Point #4, "Why did God let it happen?" primarily blames the victim.

Point #6 says that if the one abused was not at fault, then "God compensated physical abuse with spiritual power."

Point #7 uses the example of Daniel. He suffered extreme abuse by being castrated, but was rewarded by God with wisdom and understanding and he became a counselor to four kings.

Point #8 asks the question, "If you had to choose...no physical abuse or [becoming] mighty in Spirit -- what would you choose?"

The final point (#10) is that the person who has been abused should pray and dedicate his or her body to God and to forgive the abuser.

I've had more trouble with the incest issue in this case than the "molestation" issue. All the people involved were underage. Was it right, of course not, but everyone is acting like this was a 30-year old molesting a 10-year old.

What next? Are we going to start jailing little 8-year old boys because they played, "Show me yours, I'll show you mine" with little 8-year old girls?

I didn't read or hear anything about this having continued into the person in questions adulthood.

As always, I think my opinion will be the most attacked and least appreciated, but I still have the stupid urge to express my opinion.

I do not yet know all about this matter, but I do believe that the events happened when Josh Duggar was 15 years old. When I was 15 I was a typically stupid teenage boy, I made LOTS of mistakes and that is how I learned, I never had any opportunity to touch any females breasts or genitals at that time, but I am sure that if the opportunity had been there I would have made that mistake. I am EXCEEDINGLY grateful that most of the mistakes I made are not being raked up. I cannot really come down hard on someone who makes this sort of mistake, when I know in my heart I would have probably done much worse if I thought I could have gotten away with it when I was that age.

I do condemn any of the typical "holier than thou" bible belt morons who are always screaming "death to the sexual deviants!" But then when a scandal surfaces in their own camp.... the make tearful apologies "I have sinned against you my Lord..." Suddenly they are not so eager to burn themselves at the stake as they were only a second earlier when it was someone else being accused. I imagine that before this matter surfaced, Josh Duggar was probably quick to condemn anyone else, for that hypocrisy I would condemn him, but for stupid mistakes when he was 15 years old I do not.

What I really have problems with is that crazy chart.

When I hit the bit about Daniel, I had to stop.

I also believe that LT and Deacon made some good points. Is it molestation, or wrong, to play "show me yours..."?

Yeah, kids do stuff like that.

And with all the sex in media today, being thrown in your face all the time, how much more often does such happen?

I think that it is one thing when two little children play doctor. This, however, was fondling his sisters while they slept. That's not the same thing and it is wrong.

The hypocrisy comes in when Josh Dugan and his family stood up and criticized the LGBT community for being LGBT.

This was much more wrong than the "pot calling the kettle black". It was total hypocrisy.

And I think Gothard's chart is nothing but wrong.

At that, I should stop and not say anymore.

Again, I didn't say it was correct. What I have trouble with is people are ready to burn this guy at the stake for something he did as a minor. What if the situation had been reversed and it was one of the girls doing this to him? Would we be burning them at the stake?

That's mostly the problem I have with it. I have very little use for anything Duggar, but in this case I think it's a mass overreaction to an adolescent doing something wrong. If this had continued into adulthood I would certainly have a different opinion. But frankly, I'm getting tired of society treating all males like lustful cock monsters that should either be put to death or thrown in jail forever, while letting women who do similar things off with a slap on the wrist and told not to do it again.

It's a double standard. While not the original subject, it's something that bothers me about the equal rights debate between men and women - women seem to want equal rights with regard to the good stuff, but the bad stuff they don't want any part of. And when I tell feminists that I'm all for equal rights so long as it is TRUE equal rights (read you're taking the good as well as the bad) they tell me I have strange ideas. Frankly, they are the strange ones, insisting on this some animals are more equal than others attitude towards sexual crimes.

--LT

This thread was certainly hijacked in a hurry.

The starting point was the strange set of guidelines for counseling sexual abuse victims created by the Duggar family's advisor.

The guidelines ask the question of whether or not the victim was responsible for allowing or encouraging the abuse that he or she suffered. If the victim was NOT at fault, then the expectation is that God will compensate the victim for the abuse with "spiritual power."

The only example of God's reward for having been abused was the prophet Daniel, who was castrated as a child. He was rewarde

JesusA (imported) wrote: Wed May 27, 2015 7:00 pm d with wisdom and understanding

in return for having been made a eunuch as a boy.

Point #8 of the guidelines asks the abuse victim

JesusA (imported) wrote: Wed May 27, 2015 7:00 pm , "If you had to choose...no physical abuse or

mighty in Spirit, what would you choose?" Calm down. Accept the abuse, no matter how severe it was. It was God's plan. You'll be better for having experienced it!

Point #9 goes on to say, "He damaged your body. Important step: dedicate your body to God."

Am I the only one who finds it creepy that the ONLY example of sexual abuse that is talked about is the castration of a young boy?

That's why I had to stop reading the chart.

...

JesusA (imported) wrote: Fri May 29, 2015 9:24 am The only example of God's reward for having been abused was the prophet Daniel, who was castrated as a child. He was rewarde

[quote="JesusA (imported)" time

JesusA (imported) wrote: Fri May 29, 2015 9:24 am =1432717200]
d with wisdom and understanding

in return for having been made a eunuch as a
[/quote]
boy.

Point #8 of the guidelines asks the abus

JesusA (imported) wrote: Fri May 29, 2015 9:24 am e victim

JesusA (imported) wrote: Wed May 27, 2015 7:00 pm , "If you had to choose...no physical abuse or

mighty in Spirit, what would you choose?" Calm down. Accept the abuse, no matter how severe it was. It was God's plan. You'll be better for having experienced it!

Point #9 goes on to say,

"He damaged your body. Important step: dedicate your body to God."

Am I the only one who finds it creepy ... ?

Oh hell no you weren't the only one. It's just that I went to twelve grades of Nuns in Catholic school and I've heard it all and I'm tired of even thinking about such foolishness. Perhaps I've outgrown it. that's to much thinking this close to having to cook dinner. (and that isn't a frivolous statement)

a) God will always give you something in return for suffering - - sure he will. That's one of the oldest and most pernicious of all lies about faith. Catholics have to suffer for Christ like the Martyrs of Ancient Rome. There's always a heathen or a non-believer or a person who is not living in the Grace of God to oppress you.

Bullshit. That's not what Jesus preaches but that is what the Church over the two millennia teaches to keep parishioners in line. IT justifies power staying in power and suppresses. It justifies creating sheep.

b) accept the abuse? - - Once again, Hell no. Beat the bastard over the head with a 2x4. added: me to me: Don't do that. It's wrong.

Actually, public shaming and incarceration doesn't seem to help but psychiatric help might benefit the abuser. It's hard to teach abusers and other egomaniacal bullies not to do that. It's hard to teach kindness. It's hard to teach compassion. First the teach has to be what they teach. That's the really hard part.

c) Dedicate your body to God - - That teaches people to hate their bodies and not respect their bodies.

Respect isn't getting tattoos or a piercing or even having a frolic with Mary Sue in the back of the SUV. But it is the easy way out and it does follow the mis-interpretation of Original Sin (they want everyone to think it is carnal knowledge but that wasn't the Original Sin - and don't involve me in long theological discussions about it). I'm not minimizing the calling of Nuns, Monks and Priests who wish to remain celibate and pray or live an ascetic lifestyle. The rest of the world is going to marry, raise a family and have grandchildren. That requires more than celibacy or an ascetic lifestyle. IT requires material possessions and a certain level of living for yourself and your family and not living for God like the ascetics.

Now you see what I said "don't get me started." It's more than simply creepy. I think much of that teaching is wrong and not aligned with the Jesus I know from the New Testament (not the Jesus who comments) . . .

"Don't get me started?!"

Excuse me but I really enjoyed reading your post there Dave, and I am glad that someone "got you started." I am sooooooo sick and tired of hearing some sadistic fuck justifying their perverse cruelty with the classic bullshit lines like "what does not kill you makes you stronger..." or "pressure makes diamonds..." or.... It is nice to see that other people are also tired of the BULLSHIT about "no suffering can come into this world without some good coming from it..."