First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out--Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out--Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out--Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me--and there was no one left to speak for me.

.....Martin Niemoller (1892-1984)

When it comes to hate, discrimination and persecution, we're all Socialists, Trade Unionists and Jews.

MacTheWolf (imported) wrote: Wed Jul 25, 2012 4:56 pm First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out--Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out--Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out--Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me--and there was no one left to speak for me.

.....Martin Niemoller (1892-1984)

When it comes to hate, discrimination and persecution, we're all Socialists, Trade Unionists and Jews.

Sometime back I posted that quote in another thread but I can't find it now. I got negative responses to it and the thread closed as a result..

I wish you better luck. It is true; if we fail to stand up for other's rights to speak when they differ from our position we will eventually have our right to speak out taken away too..

It is something I believe in very strongly.

We need to protect each other. Just because we don't share the same opinion, or we see each other as different, it doesn't mean we stand back and do nothing when someone is wronged.

That quote has meaning for me. It might be me next. To prevent that from happening, I'll protect you and stand up for you before it goes too far. If I don't, it probably will be me next.

Some people use that quote to justify actions they shouldn't. I've heard that quote used to justify war as "preemptive". It is supposed to mean protecting each other, and valuing everyone's differences. Not destroying someone out of fear, or hate.

We are all more alike than we tell ourselves. It would be nice if we remembered that.

It might be YOU next.

MacTheWolf (imported) wrote: Wed Jul 25, 2012 4:56 pm First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out--Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out--Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out--Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me--and there was no one left to speak for me.

.....Martin Niemoller (1892-1984)

When it comes to hate, discrimination and persecution, we're all Socialists, Trade Unionists and Jews.

Martin Niemoller died in 1944, as I recall...

Before "they" came for the Socialists, in Nazi Germany, they came for the supposedly mentally ill and other supposed defectives, and Niemoller's defect was his mental illness blocking his realizing that, in Nazi philosophy, he was a defective and mentally ill.

janekane (imported) wrote: Thu Jul 26, 2012 8:03 pm Martin Niemoller died in 1944, as I recall...

Before "they" came for the Socialists, in Nazi Germany, they came for the supposedly mentally ill and other supposed defectives, and Niemoller's defect was his mental illness blocking his realizing that, in Nazi philosophy, he was a defective and mentally ill.

You "recall" incorrectly. Martin Niemoller was a Luthern theologian and died 6 March 1984, more than forty years after the start of the Nazi, and no he wasn't sent off to a concentration camp. The statement was intended to explain why all of the good German people allowed the nasty Nazis to get away with murder.

Consider. When a Jewish person commits a major crime, the Jewish community goes into guilt pangs and introspection. Like a "Tribal Crime". The Jewish press ruminates it.

The Germans are quite the opposite in nature and there was quite a mismatch all those decades after the Nazis when Jews could not fathom the lack of expressions of "Tribal Guilt" by the Germans. Rather it was, "wasn't me". Void of collective guilt except for some apologies that come off like a kid being forced to apologize.

Just sharing an observation of mine some decades ago of a cultural mismatch.

Just looked up Martin Niemoller. He was in 2 concentration camps for opposing Nazi control of churches. He was no friend of Jews.

Moi

As usual Moi, you have missed the point of the thread.

MacTheWolf (imported) wrote: Thu Jul 26, 2012 10:33 pm As usual Moi, you have missed the point of the thread.

No, just drifted it a bit. Not uncommon at EA.

janekane (imported) wrote: Thu Jul 26, 2012 8:03 pm Martin Niemoller died in 1944, as I recall...

Before "they" came for the Socialists, in Nazi Germany, they came for the supposedly mentally ill and other supposed defectives, and Niemoller's defect was his mental illness blocking his realizing that, in Nazi philosophy, he was a defective and mentally ill.

Late at night, when my brain is mostly prepared for being asleep, human error may arise. Dietrich Bonhoeffer was never Martin Niemoller, and Bonhoeffer made it until around April of 1945.

Thanks for helping me do a bit of useful brain memory function repair...

As I recall, some experts (self-proclaimed or actual?) regard memory as inherently reconstructive, and hence prone to creative scrambling to at least some extent.

So, I here offer a correction: "

janekane (imported) wrote: Thu Jul 26, 2012 8:03 pm Martin Niemoller died in 1944, as I

incorrectly recalled by temporarily confusing him with Bonhoeffer, who died in 1945.

Is error recognition other than an invitation to welcome error correction?