I have a thought to which the answer probably is that there is no answer. But somebody might have a comment which would be interesting.

Sometimes the scale of things in biology to my eyes seems to get a little out of whack.

A simple case is the crown of leaves on trees. I get used to seeing the bunch of leaves on a tree which have a certain size relationship to the trunk and height of the tree. I am used to seeing all the usual north american trees, but when you go into the jungle you can have these great tall trees, huge things really, with a little itty bitty crown of green. It just looks odd to me but it obviously works and I can accept it thinking that a little bundle of leaves works OK where there is no winter and biological activity can be strung out thru the year.

When I look at mammals, obviously I can look at the size of the human brain and accept all the thoughts that we are capable of. A dog brain looks proportional. They are complex creatures capable of a lot of feelings, but not quite calculus.

I used to fly hang gliders and my depth perception is not perfect, so I made my share of goony bird landings. But that really got me in the habit of watching birds.

Besides envying their perfect landings, I enjoy watching them having fun with flying. A couple of years ago I was out in the desert south of Tonopah, NV and a couple of times heard a caw-caw up in the sky. There was this raven that was flying lazy circles. Periodically he would fold one wing and do a complete roll. After each roll, he would call out: caw-caw. The next day I was out there again. It was windy. There was presumably the same raven who would ride lift off a bigger desert ridge When he had topped out, he would fold his wings and go into a dive and then pop out his wings at the last minute and go ground skimming over the desert topography until he had burnt up all the kinetic energy.

Years ago when I was building a fence around my house, I somehow noticed there was this raven kind of hanging around. At one point he was out in the street and I went out there. He did not fly off. I put my gloved hand down to his head and he put my gloved finger in his beak like a dog will 'play-chew' with their owners hand. The raven then started hang out on my fence posts. When he was doziing once (head tucked under wing), I went over and petted his head and he purred like a cat.

So I accept that birds have all the cranial capabilities to handle depth perception better than me and obviously have the brains to do all the survival stuff like raise young. But they also are capable of enjoying the pleasure of flight and the ability to bond with people.

When I look at the size of a raven's brain cage and get to thinking about it, it just seems to me that a lot has been packed into a small cage.

Any comments beside 'aw get a life?'

Arab Nights (imported) wrote: Mon May 07, 2012 4:24 am I have a thought to which the answer probably is that there is no answer. But somebody might have a comment which would be interesting.

Sometimes the scale of things in biology to my eyes seems to get a little out of whack.

A simple case is the crown of leaves on trees. I get used to seeing the bunch of leaves on a tree which have a certain size relationship to the trunk and height of the tree. I am used to seeing all the usual north american trees, but when you go into the jungle you can have these great tall trees, huge things really, with a little itty bitty crown of green. It just looks odd to me but it obviously works and I can accept it thinking that a little bundle of leaves works OK where there is no winter and biological activity can be strung out thru the year.

When I look at mammals, obviously I can look at the size of the human brain and accept all the thoughts that we are capable of. A dog brain looks proportional. They are complex creatures capable of a lot of feelings, but not quite calculus.

I used to fly hang gliders and my depth perception is not perfect, so I made my share of goony bird landings. But that really got me in the habit of watching birds.

Besides envying their perfect landings, I enjoy watching them having fun with flying. A couple of years ago I was out in the desert south of Tonopah, NV and a couple of times heard a caw-caw up in the sky. There was this raven that was flying lazy circles. Periodically he would fold one wing and do a complete roll. After each roll, he would call out: caw-caw. The next day I was out there again. It was windy. There was presumably the same raven who would ride lift off a bigger desert ridge When he had topped out, he would fold his wings and go into a dive and then pop out his wings at the last minute and go ground skimming over the desert topography until he had burnt up all the kinetic energy.

Years ago when I was building a fence around my house, I somehow noticed there was this raven kind of hanging around. At one point he was out in the street and I went out there. He did not fly off. I put my gloved hand down to his head and he put my gloved finger in his beak like a dog will 'play-chew' with their owners hand. The raven then started hang out on my fence posts. When he was doziing once (head tucked under wing), I went over and petted his head and he purred like a cat.

So I accept that birds have all the cranial capabilities to handle depth perception better than me and obviously have the brains to do all the survival stuff like raise young. But they also are capable of enjoying the pleasure of flight and the ability to bond with people.

When I look at the size of a raven's brain cage and get to thinking about it, it just seems to me that a lot has been packed into a small cage.

Any comments beside 'aw get a life?'

How would anyone devise an objective measure as to whether a raven's brain is immense, miniscule, or something else? Of what, how, or why, is existence demonstrably made?

Suppose the ultimate purpose of existence is the enjoyment of existence itself, and, thereby, all that exists within existence?

What exists that does not exist? Of what is non-existence made,and how can non-existence become understood within existence?

Hence, the raven...

A friend said that their pet bird--I don't know whether it was a parrot or mynah or what--not only talked but did a perfect imitation of a ringing telephone. The bird took delight in making that sound and watching people in the family run to answer the phone. The friend didn't say whether the bird laughed, but I can imagine that it was at least amused.

Sandi

Consider that we write blogs and wonder if that bird enjoys itself while birds never do that.

An owner of parrots claim the bigger ones can have the IQ of a 5 year old and maintain an on topic conversation for a few phrases.

Birds, like reptile have no neo-cortex. The presumed brainy part of the brain found in mammals and grossly expanded in humans to where it must fold on itself to make more surface area.

Birds obviously learn. What is their neo-cortex?

Volume of a Stegosaurus brain - 0.000,001,651 m3

Volume of a walnut ------------- 0.000,001,688 m3

How dumb could they have been?

Reptilian, Dinosauran, Crocodilian, and Birds are just organized differently.

Maybe a system better then mammalian brains organized for the same functions.

NeuroScuence is one of those sciences I learned, not to take as gospel.

UCI also had a very good neurosci dept as did my grad school. Real Ivory Towerism at its' best.

Moi

Arab Nights (imported) wrote: Mon May 07, 2012 4:24 am I have a thought to which the answer probably is that there is no answer. But somebody might have a comment which would be interesting.

So I accept that birds have all the cranial capabilities to handle depth perception better than me and obviously have the brains to do all the survival stuff like raise young. But they also are capable of enjoying the pleasure of flight and the ability to bond with people.

When I look at the size of a raven's brain cage and get to thinking about it, it just seems to me that a lot has been packed into a small cage.

Any comments beside 'aw get a life?'

Most of the birds' brains are given over to visual processing, but crows (Corvus corone) and ravens (Corvus corax) are members of the corvid family which also includes jays, magpies, and jackdaws which are famous for their ability to mimic sounds (and speech) and they are regarded as the most intelligent of birds. Ravens long ago recognized that large numbers of humans on the march predicted a battle and a subsequent feast so the raven became a symbol of ill-omen because of its ability to predict war. When milk was still delivered to homes, crows discovered how to peck through the paper and foil bottle caps of delivered milk and take the cream from the bottles. So though most of a bird's brain activity consists of instinctive behavior (migratory flights, mating rituals, and territorial displays) they are also capable of learning.

What is instinct?

On birds vision. I read an article about birds depth perception and visual fields a few months back. The observation was that predators who need to locate prey and dive and catch them before crashing have evolved eyes more forward with more overlapping of the visual fields which greatly improves their depth perception at the cost of a narrower visual field. Songbirds and other species that are the prey of the predators have tended to evolve eyes more to the side of the head which gives much wider fields but at the cost of stereoscopic vision and depth perception. Similar situation with mammals. Rabbits with eyes on the side have nearly 360 degree vision

On the other hand, the rabbit visual system is designed--not for foraging and locomotion--but to quickly and effectively detect approaching predators from almost any direction. The eyes are placed high and to the sides of the skull, allowing the rabbit to see nearly 360 degrees, as well as far above her head. Rabbits tend to be farsighted, which explains why they may be frightened by an airplane flying overhead even if their human companion can barely see it. (It could be a hawk! Run!)

The price the bunny pays for this remarkable field of vision is a small blind spot directly in front of his face, but forward-placed nostrils and large, spooning ears compensate for that minor loss of predator-detecting space. For an animal to have binocular vision, the field of view of both eyes must overlap to some degree. The central blind spot in the rabbit's field of view precludes a three-dimensional view of nearby objects. When your bunny cocks her head and seems to be looking at you "sideways," she is actually looking as straight at you as is possible for a bunny.Dogs and cats have much more forward eyes.

African Grey parrots

gareth19 (imported) wrote: Mon May 07, 2012 9:52 pm are famous for their ability to mimic

human speech. On one occasion an African Parrot's owner's house was burglarized. While the sheriff was filling out a report, suddenly the parrot started repeating a conversation between the two burglars. The sheriff recognized to voice of the burglar, whom he had dealt with before, and he was arrested and the missing loot was found.

Transward

Even butterflies and moths, which are food and thus have better side vision, land better than I did.

My grandfather related the story of a "pet" (more like a friend) he had as a child. A large Raven he called 'Black'. Not a very creative name, but it worked.

He had saved the raven from being attacked by dogs. It was in bad shape. It was missing a foot from its ordeal, and had a broken wing. He had to hide it from his mother in the wood shed, where he nursed the poor thing back to health. Amazingly, Black got better. Unfortunately about the time Black was recovered, my great-grandmother discovered the bird, and evicted it.

Black remembered my grandfather, and followed him thereafter. My grandfather remembered fondly sharing his lunch with one legged Black, but also remembered Black's vocal range. Black learned a wide range of sounds. Black could mimic the sounds of car horns, buzzers, bells, and most annoyingly, the sounds of children yelling. Black would entertain itself by perching over doors and create the sounds of children yelling. This would cause the occupants of the house to come out to see what all the fuss was about. When they discovered no-one around, Black would laugh and fly off. It was apparently a very human sounding laugh. (The bird equivalent of the ding-dong-ditch?)

When my grandfather got his first job delivering milk, Black learned the sound of the bell of the truck. Black would fly ahead to announce the milk truck's arrival. My great-grandmother (despite her hatred of the bird) learned to recognize when Black announced the coming of the milk truck, and used the calls to tell when she should start making my grandfather's lunch.

Black stayed my grandfather's friend for many years. Even after he got older and changed jobs, Black would still announce my grandfather's arrival home with the sound of the milk-truck. They stayed friends from my grandfather's early teens, until his mid twenties. There was only twice that Black disappeared.

The first time it disappeared, Black did not come back for several months. This was a relief to the neighborhood, because Black was a known troublemaker. One day my great-grandmother was annoyed by the sounds of children yelling on her back porch. Every-time she went to investigate, there was no-one there. When my grandfather arrived for a visit, he discovered Black had returned. Black was accompanied by a couple smaller ravens who had apparently just learned to fly. It didn't take my grandfather long to realize these were Black's chicks. So Black was a female?

Black and her chicks spent that fall following my grandfather around, and sharing in his lunch. He was never able to befriend her chicks, but Black remained regardless.

The second time Black disappeared, was the last. My grandfather told me he never really stopped looking for her. She had been his companion from the time he was about 14 to the time he got married to my grandmother. Oddly, my grandmother never got to know Black. She saw her a couple of times, but Black never vocalized around her.

My grandfather thought Black left because he was no longer paying her the attention she deserved. He liked to think Black was jealous, and left when another female moved in on her territory.

Black apparently knew quite a lot of human words and sounds, and even knew what they meant. My grandfather figured she was at least as smart as any parrot. She had been as loyal a friend as any dog.

Intelligence is not the sole domain of us humans. You can dissect the brain of a raven or a human, and think one is clearly smarter than the other. I think it is what one does with those brains that really makes the difference.