This is such a beautiful piece of writing, and beautiful sentiments within the article, that I had to share.

http://www.danoah.com/2011/11/im-christ ... e-gay.html

Thanks for that article Punkypink.

I came from a very religious and intolerant city. A very rural place where "God" has great sway over what people think and do. I noticed it very early in my life. People could be very kind and compassionate as long as you were the same skin color as they were. Believed the same things they believed, dressed the way they dressed, and thought the way they thought.

As someone who thinks differently I had a very hard time living in that city. For people who looked different, or acted differently, my home city must have been a nightmare.

A lot of those negative and terrible thoughts permeated me as well. So much suffering, hatred and violence was dished out with the justification of religion it was simply accepted as the "Christian" thing to do.

Only a lot later in my life, since I've made a break from religion, am I able to truly love and accept my fellow people with open arms, and an open mind. It took the loss of faith for me to find my love of humanity, and ultimately a love of myself.

Like the author of the article you linked to, I too have studied different religions. The very basic tenants seem simple and beautiful. Love seems to be the message. Unfortunately, as you dig deeper into the religion and things begin to flesh out the cogs and bolts of how you are expected to worship, no religion is free of stupid and short sighted thoughts. No religion truly preaches love for all people. When they start getting into the tenants of what you can and cannot do, and the punishments for transgressions, it gives licence to hate.

If religions could just stick to the powerful and enlightened tenants that founded the religion, that would be fine, and there would be a lot less wars and suffering. Sadly, religions are more than their founding message. If you read the Bible the whole way through, there is some terrible, terrible hate fueled things in there. Calling for people to be put to death for things we might not think twice about today. No religion seems immune from this.

I've slowly made my way from practicing Christian, to non-practicing, to agnostic, to atheist. Along the way, I've found more and more value in the contributions and value of my fellow human beings. I try not to be a dick about my atheism. I'm no Richard Dawkins or Christopher Hitchens where I think religion has to be purged from the world, stuffing my thoughts down other people's throats. Those guys have just as much hate for people with religion, as people with religion have for people who don't believe what they do.

I'm trying to live my life without hate. I think if more people did just that, this would be a lot nicer world to live in.

Thank you for sharing this. I needed to read it and so do many others in this world. Sometimes it's hard to like yourself and if you can't do that you wont like any one else either.

In reply to cananite I would just say that those who profess to be christian and then go on and set them self up as judge and jury over everyone are not christian and not following the mandate of unconditional love. Most of these people don't even like themselves and it is just easier to find fault with others than to admit to being less than perfect themselves.

You know. When I was young my parents sent me to bible camp. While there, I asked a Christian minister, "What if there was a person who lived a good life, was always good to his fellow person, shared, and never harmed anyone, but did not believe in God or Jesus. Would that person go to hell, even if they had never sinned?"

He responded, "The only way to get to heaven is through Jesus. The road to hell is paved with good intentions."

"So he'd go to hell?" I asked again.

"Yes. His soul would burn." He answered. "You have to believe in God and Jesus, or you are condemned to an eternity of fire."

"So what about all the people who died before the bible was written? What about all the people who were born too far away to even know about the bible, or Jesus? What happens to them." I had a lot of friends who were Native Canadian, First Nations people (Indians, for the uninitiated). I wondered what would happen to the souls of people born continents away from the influence of Christianity, pre-Columbus colonization.

"Savages go to a savage place." He told me.

Those words still haunt me. This was a Christian minister. This was a person preaching about love and acceptance and missionary work. However, there was a hole in his love, and I came to see it a hole in faith itself. There can only ever be one way. Anything outside that prescription is unworthy. Is less than human.

Even if a person is good and kind and loving, it is not enough for God. Even if a person never sins, God still hates them and will condemn them to torment because they live outside his tenants. People who do not accept the "one true faith" are less than complete people. They are already condemned to hell in the future, so why waste any thought or love on them in the present?

That is the internal workings of it. If you come to recognize that someone is doing something that, by the articles of your faith, would condemn them to hell, then you can see them as less than a person. Not someone you'd waste any love on yourself.

You can shun an openly gay person because they are going to hell. You can perform any manner of atrocity to people who are different because they are less than you. You, after all, have God's love and will be rewarded with eternal heaven. This disgusting worm is hated by god, and will burn for eternity. How can you love something that even God won't love?

When you recognize that even God won't love a heathen, you can justify all manner of terrible things to do to that heathen. Why should God punish you for harming something even he does not care about?

I personally recognize that not all Christians think this way. I recognize that not all religious people think like this. Unfortunately, in my experience, those people are in the extreme minority.

Loving someone who you know in your heart of hearts is going to hell, is a very difficult thing to do. Can you really love them as well, and as completely as you love someone who you know is going to heaven? If you do, then how do you justify that God cannot? When you die, and go to heaven, the person you loved, as God asked you to love them, is going to hell. Does this mean God is not as capable of love, as the humans he presides over?

Religion to me, is about dividing people into the worthy, and the unworthy. Only those who live in this way and believe this thing are worthy, everyone else is unworthy. It is us versus them. As soon as you start thinking, "This group is the chosen people." or , "This group gets to go heaven." or "Only people who think this one way are worthy of God's love." then you must also let the idea enter that, "These other people go to hell." and "People who think differently are hated by God." and "The people who God did not choose are worth less than we are."

Imagine if the phrase "God is Love" were true. How then is it that God can condemn souls to hell, a place devoid of God's love and light? Would you do that to someone you loved? I wouldn't.

Imagine you truly and deeply love someone who does not believe in God. This person you love has never sinned. They have lived their life in purity, and humility. Their only flaw is that they reject the teachings of the religion you believe in. You love them anyway. The heart wants what the heart wants. You both die, and are sent to the afterlife. Would heaven be heaven without them? Could you find peace in the afterlife knowing the person who was good and kind and never sinned is burning in torment?

What if their only sin was that they were gay? What if their only sin was they believed in a different god than you. What if their only sin was that they ate pork?

Humans are capable of loving other people despite their sins. I've loved many people who've been "sinners". I'm loved by people who know I am one. Why can I love someone but God cannot? Only in the name of religion can you hate another person for their sins. Only in the name of religion can a parent disavow their child, can a neighbor turn against his neighbor, because he sinned. The sin of being Gay. The sin of not believing in God, or the same god. The sin of being different.

I found my life got a lot better when I stopped with the fallacy of "us" and "them". I finally accepted something I find true. It is just "us". There is no "them". In order for me to do that, I had to reject what I had been taught by religion. I had to recognize that no matter what you believe, and no matter how you live, we are both on this planet together. If I had lived your life, and experienced your experiences, I'd be just the same as you. If you'd lived my life, you'd be just the same as I am. You are just as worthy a person as I am. I am just as worthy as you are.

Can you imagine if we were able to do that? If we were able to finally reject the idea that, "this group goes to hell, and this group goes to heaven." or "these people God loves and those people god hates."

My beliefs are my own. I don't think you should lose your religion or change who you are because I think differently than you do. I'm trying something new in my life. I'm just trying to live honestly, and with love. If I go to hell because of that, then so be it.

Any God that would punish me for loving, is no god I'd want to spend an eternity with anyhow.

Great review punkypink ! ^-^

While their are many views and writings about this subject every human has the choice to be good or bad. Some choose a path that is directed by their religion, and they can then think , or beleive that their choice is validated, becouse their God or religion sais so.

In life we have warning signs that say "Danger of death", say on a electric pole. We take note becouse its warning us that somthing is dangerous. We would not touch the cable would we?

Some religious people (not all) use the fact that they have been "Told" to do somthing that it must be right, rather than thinking, well is this right what I'm doing or wrong?

We all have the ability to choose for ourselfs to be good or bad to others.

Ryan ^-^

I'd also like to point out that it isn't solely about Christianity. The author mentions other religions in his article, and of how people of those religions have been equally guilty of the wrongs he's mentioned. It isn't about religion, it's about hate being justified with a "religious" veil.

Cainanite (imported) wrote: Wed Dec 14, 2011 12:03 am You know. When I was young my parents sent me to bible camp. While there, I asked a Christian minister, "What if there was a person who lived a good life, was always good to his fellow person, shared, and never harmed anyone, but did not believe in God or Jesus. Would that person go to hell, even if they had never sinned?"

He responded, "The only way to get to heaven is through Jesus. The road to hell is paved with good intentions."

"So he'd go to hell?" I asked again.

"Yes. His soul would burn." He answered. "You have to believe in God and Jesus, or you are condemned to an eternity of fire."

"So what about all the people who died before the bible was written? What about all the people who were born too far away to even know about the bible, or Jesus? What happens to them." I had a lot of friends who were Native Canadian, First Nations people (Indians, for the uninitiated). I wondered what would happen to the souls of people born continents away from the influence of Christianity, pre-Columbus colonization.

"Savages go to a savage place." He told me.

Those words still haunt me. This was a Christian minister. This was a person preaching about love and acceptance and missionary work. However, there was a hole in his love, and I came to see it a hole in faith itself. There can only ever be one way. Anything outside that prescription is unworthy. Is less than human.

Even if a person is good and kind and loving, it is not enough for God. Even if a person never sins, God still hates them and will condemn them to torment because they live outside his tenants. People who do not accept the "one true faith" are less than complete people. They are already condemned to hell in the future, so why waste any thought or love on them in the present?

This is essentially the central thing in regards to Christianity which ensures that I will never be a Christian. At it's core, the god they describe is not about caring for others, not about doing the right thing, not about any of the high-flying principles that raise us above the dirt.

It's about a petty little tinpot dictator who's so egotistical and insecure about his own existence that he's going to put someone through an eternity of the worst torments imaginable merely because that person failed to acknowledge how great he is. Meanwhile, you could be the worst human being who ever lived, preying upon the weak and innocent, and if you kowtow before him, you're good.

And that's not even getting into a discussion about the narrow-minded, pig-headed people that seem to form the vocal majority of it's followers, or other issues I have with the religion.

Good writing though. Thank you, Punkypink, for posting a link here.

You sound like a real tolerant loving person Ieunuch.

I have experienced both the very ugly and the very good of the Christian faith. This in itself should not be. I was raised for a part of my life not to far from the Westboro Baptists (Topeka) although I was Catholic. I know the very worst. But then later on in life, I was part of what I thought was a wonderful congregation until unfortunately I started thinking again. Oh well. I do have ancestry that was derogatorily feferred to all along. And the ignorance really did hurt. I cannot deny that.