Since the EA message boards had to move, there has been a lot of discussion about the appropriate nature of the Fiction Archive. Many have said that the Fiction Archive was the reason we lost our old home on the web. I have no inside information on the reasons, but I did want to start a serious discussion about whether what is in those stories should be censored.

Most people point to the stories that are tagged "Minor" as the most offensive. I propose there are several categories of story that are equally controversial.

Slavery

Rape

Violence

Prostitution

Incest

There are probably many more.

If we were to eliminate one category of story, why not more? Where does our censorship stop?

Take the novel Game of Thrones by George R Martin. It is a vastly popular series of books, and now an HBO mini-series.

In the story Daenerys Targaryen is 14 years old when she is sold to a horse lord to pay for her brother's army. She is raped on her wedding night. Most of the story's protagonists are children. One of the most important players in the story is the eunuch Varys, known as the spider, who likes young pretty boys for his spy network. The main villains of the story are engaged in incestuous relationships. Another player in the story is Littlefinger, who runs the city's brothels, and trains the new prostitutes. He brags about being able to provide satisfaction to every carnal lust, including necrophilia.

Would a story like that be banned on the EA? Should it? It is definitely "Minor" themed. There are also the tags "Rape", "Incest", "Violence", "Prostitution" and "Slavery".

Do we allow the do-gooders and busybodies to decide what we should and should not read? What are the risks and how do we protect against them?

I am very interested in a discussion of our options, both for and against.

I for one, would never have found the EA if it weren't for the Fiction Archive. Writing a story intended for the fiction archive has, and is giving me an outlet for issues and emotions I couldn't otherwise express.

I wrote a story back in 2004 that I submitted to the Fiction Archive. When I read it now, I find it distasteful. I no longer feel the way I did back then. It is not the type of story I would write again. That story did however inspire another couple of authors to further explore the character I wrote. The character I wrote didn't just help me purge my own destructive emotions, but did so for at least two other authors.

Distasteful themed stories aren't meant to be instruction manuals. They are cathartic releases for their authors, and also for their readers. They expose and put to rest the dark natures and fears that reside in our subconscious.

I do not desire any censorship of the Fiction Archive. However, after much soul searching I find I would agree with putting them behind a password and age verification before access.

I open the discussion to all of you. What do you think?

Should the Fiction Archive be censored, password protected, deleted entirely?

Or, none of the above?

I would drolly have to vote on pass protected. I don't care for censorship in any light. For what it's worth I haven't really cared much for the fiction archive, but I don't agree with depriving people of it.

(Sent via my phone)

I agree with most everything you said. I think writing minor stories does provide a cathartic release for many writers, many of whom have unresolved issues about castration that began with or before puberty. Writing gives them a way of examining those feelings, and in many cases, helps them resolve them. When is a boy more obsessed with sex and his sexual organs than when he is going through puberty? It was all I thought about at the time.

I'm currently reading Book 4 of Song of Ice and Fire, of which Game of Thrones is the first book. For a girl to be married, she just needs to have her period. Boys are full grown at 15, and I've lost count of how many children in the books that have been raped, killed, tortured, or castrated. There are whole armies of eunuchs, all castrated as children. As boys, they are taken from their families, castrated, and given a puppy. If after a year, during which they only have the puppy to love, they can't kill it, they are killed instead.

A young girl was raped by a mob.

Some of this wouldn't have been permitted on the old archive, but this is a mainstream book, and it is treated differently than is the archive or is such stories on most sites. People, these days, tend to call anything about children that includes sex posted on the Internet Child Porn. Legally, it isn't in the USA. Child Porn has to have a real child that has been victimized and almost always involves actual pictures of that victim. Laws in other countries are different, however. I heard of one German citizen being prosecuted in Germany for a child story he posted on EA. At least, he posted on the message boards he had.

I don't like censorship, but I run an Extreme Arts site, and although about everything else is allowed, we have a rule against any minor images, even drawings or CGI, or stories about minors being posted. I once posted such CGI images and minor stories about castration on one of my sites. I don't any more. The climate the last few years has changed. I had one site closed down for the extreme art posted on it, and it didn't include anything about minors.

I'm not in a position to make any decision about whether or not the Archive returns or, if it does, it will include minor stories. I would guess it won't include such stories, but that's up to the owners of this site. As you can see by what happened, one can catch a lot of heat for posting stories about minors. Perhaps all the mentioned things that happen to children in Song, are excused because they are only a part of a much broader story, whereas, in a story posted on the Archive, that's the whole story, minors getting castrated and fucked. Having written such stories, I understand my motivation for writing them, but I would have difficulty justifying having written them to people not on this site.

Of course, Song isn't the only mainstream example of harm being done to children. I've seen children depicted on Law and Order with their throats cut, pictures I wouldn't dare show on any of my sites. Even in a classic like Lord of the Flies, there is child rape. It isn't described, but there is no doubt that Roger - and probably others - rape the twins, Sam and Eric, and there is plenty of child nudity in the 1963 film directed by Peter Brook, but what can you expect in today's world where a parent might get prosecuted for having nude pictures of his child, or children can become registered sex offenders for sending naked pictures of themselves to other children?

I'm in agreement with you Slammr.

There is nothing immediately wrong with the stories themselves. It is the climate we find ourselves in that is prompting this discussion.

I also agree there is a difference between something being a part of a larger whole, like the example of child castrations in the Song of Ice and Fire books, and a story that is entirely about the castration and sexualization of a minor.

We find ourselves in an odd quandary. The fascination with castration starts for many of us in childhood. The very eunuch mindset is deeply entangled with puberty, sex and submission. The "minor" stories explore these ideas and concepts for both the authors and the readers. As with any written work, there is metaphor and allegory at work.

In most minor themed stories on the EA, I can clearly see the struggle the author is trying to express. For lack of elloquence on my part I will use examples from the Fiction Archive. (Please excuse my errors. This is from memory.)

In the "Simon" stories from C van D, I see the author expressing the childhood confusion and fear of puberty. I see an overall story arc that struggles to define the characters as more than just their sex. Simon's story grows ever larger and more world reaching. Simon is a character defined by his willingness to act out of a common good. To be accepting and loving without being sexual.

In the new series by Sander "Freedom" and "Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose", you have a character longing to be free from sexual desire (a longing that starts pre-puberty) being literally enslaved by sex. A more perfect metaphor for the author's conundrum I cannot envision. How sex and sexual desire controls our lives, and how we wish all our lives to be free of it. The story is told with a contempt for sex that nearly leaps off the page.

Il Musico's "Choir Boy" is a lyrically told story, written with a delicate hand. The children face a minefield of emotion and confusion with puberty just on the horizon. Puberty and sexual desire threatens to destroy everything they hold dear, everything they love. It is a story about what we will sacrifice for the life we desire. The characters sacrifice a part of themselves to live their dream, one free of sex, yet completely fulfilled. Sex is seen as something outside. Sex is something for other people, not the main characters. It is a story that explores when we come to know we are destined for the eunuch life. That even as children we know. Just as a child might recognize they are gay or transgendered. It validates that our sexual identity, or lack thereof, is in us at an early age, and is valid no matter when we come to discover it.

The "San Carlos Island" stories are harder to dissect, but on close examination one can see the metaphor at work. The child eunuchs are ensnared in a world defined by male sexual desire. The male sexual desire is vilified. Every intact adult male is fueled only by their sexual appetites, their justifications for abuse are hollow and self serving. The children are disgusted by the intact and hairy men, and never want to be like that. The story is a metaphor for the real modern eunuch in a world defined by testosterone, and "accepted" sexual identity. The eunuch lives in a world controlled on every level by those with sexual appetites, and testosterone. "Society" cannot let the eunuch be free, but must press us into the roles it wants us in. The eunuch is abused by a society not of his making.

There are many cruder stories, those without such obvious meaning. Many of which serve only as a cathartic release for the author. My first story on the EA was one such as that. It was something that was haunting my mind, and I needed to get out. Only much later have I come to understand what was in my mind when I wrote it. I wrote it from the perspective of the adult, from the one in power, condemning the child to a sexless state. Only now do I understand in that story, I was the child. I was expressing my own helplessness and confusion. I was writing that I was a victim of powers outside my control, that my future sex life was decided for me. I needed to write that story so that these many years later I could understand it. Without the Fiction Archive, it is a realization I may never have had.

There is a desire to be a eunuch that starts in childhood. One cannot invalidate that argument. There are things that decide our future sexuality that happen in childhood. Becoming a sexual being (puberty) cannot be un-entwined from the eunuch's desire to end being a sexual being. It is the ying and the yang. We all start life as non-sexual (pre-puberty) and the eunuch desires to return to that state. Or as in my case, wishes to better understand the dichotomy between the two states.

Should Eunuch World completely separate from its former identity of the Eunuch Archive and abandon stories altogether. Should the concepts and explorations of our identity no longer be explored in fiction? Should we just censor ourselves and ignore any explorations that start pre-puberty?

I completely understand the concerns that exist with writing stories that are minor themed in the Fiction Archive. I don't want a valuable resource shut down because outsiders don't understand. I also recognize it would be a terrible loss, to lose the Fiction Archive, or any part of it. The fiction archive is the voice we share that says, "You are not alone in feeling that way."I tells me, "You are not a monster for having these thoughts." and, "We understand."

There were times over the last many years where reading the Fiction Archive was the only thing that kept me going. Knowing I wasn't the only one dealing with disturbing thoughts that haunted me. There were many stories I couldn't read, because the themes were too graphic, or were outside my comfort zone. Stories about violence, rape and sexual submission sent me running the other direction. Would I move to ban them? No. They may not have helped me, but I know they helped someone else. There is a lot of variety in the eunuch fantasy. I can't begrudge another, simply because I don't understand what they need, or what they are exploring for themselves.

If the decision comes down that the Fiction Archive will not return, or that minor themed stories will be excised... well I understand that. I understand the concerns and the precarious nature the Fiction Archive causes this community. However, if that is the decision, I will have to leave too. I will have lost the one place that truly made me feel at home, that truly explored what it means to be me.

For what it's worth, I've only glanced at some of the titles in the fiction archives, and have always found myself either too disinterested or too freaked out to go much further.

Not that I haven't written things that I would be terrified to share anywhere else.

The thing about the internet is that it facilitates willful separation--we can easily find people we connect to, and get away from those we dislike. So when someone runs into something on the internet that disturbs them, it breaks into that false sense of security. Put that on top of the horror stories in the media and all the controversies going on (and those just seem to be increasing exponentially!), and we've got a climate that is not nice to us.

I remember someone posting a while back that everyone here should be killed, "especially the people that write the stories". Because apparently murder is ok, but disturbing sexual issues are evil at its finest.

Also, crime shows, like law and order or criminal minds. Those disturb the hell out of me.

I remember one about a piano teacher that was a pedophile, and frequent references to the fact that he touched boys inappropriately. That episode leaves me wondering what specifically he did. Which in turns leaves me questioning why in the hell that is what it does to me. (It was implied that there was no actual rape, just inappropriate things done with the hands on you-can-probably-guess-what).

Really, if those are ok for television, then just about anything's ok for the internet.

Another example: 4chan. I don't visit that website, but it dominates the 13-30 internet user base so much that it's hard to avoid discovering how messed up it is. Things come out of there that I find myself wishing had stayed in there, or never come into being in the first place (some is just annoying, some is crude for the sake of being crude). Just because I loathe my impression of the place, though, doesn't mean I'd get behind a movement to wipe it out.

(Although, I'm sure the backlash to the destruction of 4chan would be hilarious to watch...)

Umm, so I guess I could have summed that up with "No censorship, please."

... I can't find my way out of the reply box, now.

Personally, I have to agree that censorship is wrong. Especially when it comes to fictional 'harm' occurring to fictional beings of any kind.

Attempting to classify purely fictional pieces of text as equivalent to real damage occurring to real children makes about as much sense as attempting to try someone for first-degree murder based upon them having played Grand Theft Auto, Call of Duty or just about any other video game out there. (Clearly, there is premeditation involved, since the game was knowingly purchased and played, knowing what the subject matter was.)

Unfortunately however, that is a purely theoretical viewpoint. Out here in the real world, things are somewhat different. The way people tend to go bugshit insane whenever even the idea of sexual contact with children arises, I'm not about to even attempt to reconcile theory with reality. The last decade has shown an amazing deterioration of 'free speech' rights in this context, and the trend will get worse before it gets better. There are cases where collectors of hentai have been accused of possession of child pornography, solely on the basis of possessing drawings. In the US (and MANY other countries, the US isn't alone in this) a drawing of Lisa Simpson engaging in sexual relations is essentially considered equivalent to a photograph of an actual child being molested. Expect 'free speech' regarding text to be similarly constrained.

Why? I figure the reason is simple. I'd like every one of you who read this thread, and support such stories to answer just one question honestly: Would you want your name associated with a lawsuit which, in the minds of many, argues in favour of child pornography? That's how the authorities would phrase it, and that's how the media would report it. Think carefully about your reply, and please answer truthfully.

Any person attempting to defend free speech along these lines will be publicized as promoting 'kiddie porn'. Any politician or legal aid group supporting such a lawsuit would be vilified. Personally, I don't think even the EFF or ACLU would want to get too publicly behind an issue like this. (I could be wrong on this, I'm only expressing my opinion on the matter.) What I can say for sure is that you couldn't pay me enough to have my name attached to such a fight. Hell, I wouldn't want to be anywhere even near the kind of crap a lawsuit of that nature would bring down.

Taking a slightly different tack, banning this kind of fiction on the grounds that it might encourage people to go harm actual children is asinine. You might as well ban violent video games, because some people who have played them have then gone on to shoot people. Ban heavy metal, since some felt it was telling them to go murder others. Ban role-playing games, because everyone knows D&D causes murder sprees. Ban TV too, since there's likely one person who has claimed TV told them to kill people. Ban caffeine, because every addict out there started using caffeine long before alcohol or hard drugs. Ban refined sugar, because those same people were addicted to it even before they started on caffeine. There's only one person responsible for your actions, and that's you. Blaming stories (or drawings, or music, or video games, or whatever) is just an easy way to avoid having to take personal responsibility.

Cainanite (imported) wrote: Mon Jul 11, 2011 12:34 am In most minor themed stories on the EA, I can clearly see the struggle the author is trying to express. For lack of elloquence on my part I will use examples from the Fiction Archive. (Please excuse my errors. This is from memory.)

Have you read any of my stories? If so, can you see the struggle I am trying to express? I would love to read what you think.

To the question, "

BossTamsin (imported) wrote: Mon Jul 11, 2011 6:33 am Would you want your name associated with a lawsuit which, in the minds of many, argues in favour of child pornography?

", asked by IEunuch, I reply that, were there such a lawsuit, I would ask that my name be associated with it, in accord with my licensed professional standing, the better to defend the Archive Stories from being tragically misunderstood, and the better to act to overcome aspects of child abuse which tend to drive people into either being silent with words until telling of abuse is possible only through violent acting out, or using words which trouble those who have been silenced and/or are at risk of violently destructive overt conduct.

If it came down to a lawsuit, yes. I would want my real name associated. I actually understand and can explain what these stories mean. I would welcome the opportunity to explain in a court of law what the eunuch stories represent. How the metaphor and allegory allows us to explore what we really are.

It would be a challenge, and I would be scared, but no progress is ever achieved without personal sacrifice, or without taking a risk. I'll try to avoid it going to that extreme. I'd prefer it not be raised to the legal level. But if the topic needs champions, and I feel this strongly about it, then my conscience would force me to act.