music history - da, da, da, duh

[Dave (imported)]

You all know it. Three short notes and one long. And you all think it is Beethoven. The "victory" theme.

But years later, Gustave Mahler composed a symphony and used the same motif - three short notes and one long to begin his fifth symphony. This was a homage to Beethoven the master of all symphonies.

At the end of the 19th century, the literati of music gathered in Europe to hear new music from a young and relatively unknown composer. They thought they would hear more Romantic music.

What they heard was not the last of the great Romantic composers

but instead they heard the first composer of the 20th century.

Previously the world lived in the traditions of the Baroque and Classical composers -- Bach, Haydn, Mozart and finally Beethoven, father of the symphonic form and to this day a composer who sets a standard to follow. However after Beethoven came Brahms and the romance artists. Brahms unleashed the magnificent romantics: Schubert, Mendelssohn Chopin, and all of those leading down to Bruckner, Wagner, Puccini, Verdi, Tchaikovsky etc...

We know and love all of that music. It is characterized by its name - Romantic.

But now in years, we approach the end of the century. and so, the literati of the music world assembled in Europe to hear who they thought was the next great Romantic composer to follow in the footsteps of the Romantics.

What they heard was the first big gun of the twentieth century.

Gustav Mahler burst onto the music scene with symphonic worlds so iconoclastic, so vibrant, so emotional and yet, so not Romantic.

The Second Symphony with a huge choral ending titled "Resurrection" and a few years later, a Fifth symphony - the numbered symphony which Brahms dared not compose out of respect and fear of the Giant Beethoven hovering over him, Mahler composed a fifth symphony using Beethoven own rhythmic opening.

The Pittsburgh Symphony played Mahler's 5th today (Manfred Honeck Conducting) and it was magnificent. The first half of the concert was Mahler's "Kindertotenlieder" and it was sublimely beautiful.

In the years that followed Mahler's 5th symphony, the world of music changed. Think of Igor Stravinsky's three ballets - 1910 THE FIREBIRD, 1911, Petrushka, and 1913, THE RITES OF SPRING, music so modern at the time that "Rites" had an opening night riot.

Everything after Mahler is modern, the new world. D-Schostakovitch, Sibelius, Scriabin, Vaughan Williams, Schoenberg, Holst, Ravel, Messiaen, Orrf, BArber, Penderecki, etc...

This doesn't diminish the old but now we see the history of music laid bare.

Now we see the giants of each century in their proper place.

[MacTheWolf (imported)]

Interesting idea.

[tugon (imported)]

What they heard was the first big gun of the twentieth century.

Gustav Mahler burst onto the music scene with symphonic worlds so iconoclastic, so vibrant, so emotional and yet, so not Romantic.

The Second Symphony with a huge choral ending titled "Resurrection" and a few years later, a Fifth symphony - the numbered symphony which Brahms dared not compose out of respect and fear of the Giant Beethoven hovering over him, Mahler composed a fifth symphony using Beethoven own rhythmic opening.

The Pittsburgh Symphony played Mahler's 5th today (Manfred Honeck Conducting) and it was magnificent. The first half of the concert was Mahler's "Kindertotenlieder" and it was sublimely beautiful.

In the years that followed Mahler's 5th symphony, the world of music changed. Think of Igor Stravinsky's three ballets - 1910 THE FIREBIRD, 1911, Petrushka, and 1913, THE RITES OF SPRING, music so modern at the time that "Rites" had an opening night riot.

Everything after Mahler is modern, the new world. D-Schostakovitch, Sibelius, Scriabin, Vaughan Williams, Schoenberg, Holst, Ravel, Messiaen, Orrf, BArber, Penderecki, etc...

This doesn't diminish the old but now we see the history of music laid bare.

Now we see the giants of each century in their proper place.

As a fan of Mahler I have to say I am also a fan or Sibelius, Holst, Messian and Carl Orff. I love the moderns and the oldies.

[DeaconBlues (imported)]

All this is very good and fine, but what relevance does it have to Lady Gaga?

[Dave (imported)]

Mozart was the Lady Gaga of his day and age.

[Danya (imported)]

Some say that Richard Wagner pointed the way forward to 20th century music in his opera Tristan und Isolde. This 'music drama' premiered in 1865, five years after Mahler was born.

In any case, there are elements in many of Beethoven's compositions, particularly his later works, that even today sound strikingly modern. Methods of composition going back to Bach's day (died in 1750) and earlier are still used in many works.

Similarly, there are many other pre-20th century composers who influenced the multiple paths of 20th and 21th century music.

I do not agree that Mozart was the equivalent of Lady Gaga. Mozart created what is known by musicologists as 'art music' that follows certain principles of structure, complex melodic and harmonic development, and so on. My intention is not to take away from Lady Gaga. Musicologists refer to her type of music as pop music.

Mahler might have learned a few things from the equivalent of a pop star of Mozart's time. Composers of art music often incorporate elements of the popular music of their time. There is some overlap between art, pop and other music forms.

Mahler gained most of his skills at composing art music by learning from earlier composers of art music, including Wagner. As with all gifted composers of art music, and pop music too, he called on his creativity to develop a unique and wonderful style.

[Danya (imported)]

You all know it. Three short notes and one long. And you all think it is Beethoven. The "victory" theme.

.....

Previously the world lived in the traditions of the Baroque and Classical composers -- Bach, Haydn, Mozart and finally Beethoven, father of the symphonic form

If anyone was the father of the symphonic form, it was Franz Joseph Haydn. Beethoven studied under him for a time.

...

after Beethoven came Brahms and the romance artists. Brahms unleashed the magnificent romantics: Schubert, Mendelssohn Chopin,

Brahms was a composer of the late Romantic period. Schubert is considered by many to be the first fully romantic era composer. Some suggest Beethoven led the way to the romantic composers in his late works.

Schubert died before Brahms was born. So Brahms could not have influenced his style. Mendelssohn died when Brahms was about 13, so there was no Brahmsian influence there either.

Similarly, Chopin died when Brahms was about 16.

and all of those leading down to Bruckner, Wagner, Puccini, Verdi, Tchaikovsky etc...

Brahms and Tchaikovsky hated each other's music. Although Brahms told Wagner he admired some of his works, Wagner did not return the compliment. Brahms and Wagner followed very different musical paths.

Brahms had little influence on Puccini and Verdi.

Brahms in his unique way brought together elements of the baroque, classical and romantic periods. Still, he was absolutely a romantic composer. After Bach, many consider Brahms the most skilled composer in the use of counterpoint including the most complex counterpoint format of all, the fugue. Many, not all, composers prefer to avoid this complexity. Compositional techniques such as fugue and chorale prelude (which also uses counterpoint techniques) are extraordinarily complex, combining multiple melodies that must mesh harmonically as the harmony develops through the piece. Writing one beautiful melody is hard. Writing two or more gorgeous melodies that are heard simultanesouly is a masterful feat. Modern composers at times use counterpoint.

But now in years, we approach the end of the century. and so, the literati of the music world assembled in Europe to hear who they thought was the next great Romantic composer to follow in the footsteps of the Romantics.

What they heard was the first big gun of the twentieth century.

Gustav Mahler burst onto the music scene with symphonic worlds so iconoclastic, so vibrant, so emotional and yet, so not Romantic.

Mahler was extraordinary. Many, perhaps most, musicologists still place him in the late romantic period.

The Second Symphony with a huge choral ending titled "Resurrection" and a few years later, a Fifth symphony - the numbered symphony which Brahms dared not compose out of respect and fear of the Giant Beethoven hovering over him, Mahler composed a fifth symphony using Beethoven own rhythmic opening.

I have read a lot of music history and biographies of many composers. I have never run across even a suggestion that Brahms dared not compose a fifth symphony. He merely went in other directions. It is also questionable if he ever truly feared Beethoven's legacy.

Brahm's First Symphony is considered a homage to Beethoven. The last movement has parts that appear to be inspired by Beethoven's Fifth and Ninth Symphonies. After finishing his symphony #1, Brahms was more typically 'Brahmsian' in his last three symphonies.

The Pittsburgh Symphony played Mahler's 5th today (Manfred Honeck Conducting) and it was magnificent. The first half of the concert was Mahler's "Kindertotenlieder" and it was sublimely beautiful.

In the years that followed Mahler's 5th symphony, the world of music changed. Think of Igor Stravinsky's three ballets - 1910 THE FIREBIRD, 1911, Petrushka, and 1913, THE RITES OF SPRING, music so modern at the time that "Rites" had an opening night riot.

The riot story is probably overstated, at least as to how far the music of The Rite of Spring itself contributed.

This thread omits eastern music and other traditions, too. I'm getting into those a bit. Their forms are usually startingly different from what we consider typical music in the western world. Western composers who write music similar to eastern masters have, to my knowledge, so far failed to produce anything like the real deal.

I comment on Lady Gaga and Mozart in my previous post on this thread.

[gareth19 (imported)]

Mozart was the Lady Gaga of his day and age.

No; Mozart conceived of music that could reach a top F; what has Lady Gaga got? A range of three notes?

[punkypink (imported)]

No; Mozart conceived of music that could reach a top F; what has Lady Gaga got? A range of three notes?

And a meat dress.

[Dave (imported)]

I probably got a few composers out of chronological order. That's the magic of Classical or Symphonic music as opposed to Popular music. We listen to all ages of it all at once. We can like all ages at once. It's all wonderfully subjective in that what we hear and like is usually wha we consider good.

I mostly put the post together because I was discussing the historical significance of the Mahler 5th with a friend before the concert. IT is very reasonable to consider Bruckner the last Romantic composer and Mahler the first Modern composer.

In opera it was the rise of "verismo" (and I've lost the average person with that word). For those who are not opera fans, this is the change from operas about (to borrow from a movie) olde dead gods to operas about real life (like Carmen, Tosca or La Boheme). Wagner and the Italians bickered a lot about this and while neither won their arguments, the world of music is richer for the argument.

Now that does ignore Wagner and those towering, magnificent operas. However, that's one thing we all have to remember - Wagner mostly compose opera. Mahler was symphonic. Wagner was a bully and a lout. Mahler was slightly crazy and insecure.

And yes, I hear the modernity in the Late Beethoven Quartets but to describe that would be down in the grass of the forest rather than the leaves of the tree (if you know what I mean by the metaphor).

Along with that I would say if you listen to all of the 41 Mozart symphonies at once (it takes a day or two or three) and neglect all other music, you can hear Mozart moving through the musical periods from the baroque towards the romantic and modern.

Back in 1978, I first hear the Turangalila symphony by Messiaen and left the concert hall humming the melodies (that's a funny. It is melodic but not as YOU think of melody)... This is a brilliant piece of modern music but not a common piece. Don't jump in here. Try Messiaen's "Quartet for the End of Time"

Ives is another modern composer that sets audience on edge. I like some of his stuff.

For me, Vivaldi is the composer who drives me bat-shit crazy and I turn off.

I'm also a sucker for waltzes and pleasant happy music.

A comment about Brahms first Symphony - Brahms himself says it took 20 years from first sketch to premiere. Brahms had lots of self doubt because Beethoven was so huge and so beloved. It doesn't take hearing very much of the symphony to understand why he gets the last B in BBB... I mentioned that more in positioning Beethoven than Brahms. T

he father of the symphonic form

(sonata allegro) may be Haydn but when the world wants to hear a symphony, they mostly turn to Beethoven. Beethoven was the iconoclast.

A lot of scattered comments here.