I was emailing with someone who was telling me that they take BOTH E & T.

Reasoning being that T helps with keeping strength up and any excess converts to E anyways. The E of course would feminize the body.

I know the steroid/testosterone abusers can grow manboobs/breasts as can men on TRT. The person claims that because they are similar hormones they aren't in conflict.

This just seems counter to everything I've learned about hormones. I mean wouldn't this be a mindfreak somehow?

Anyone???

Hello,

high doses of T can be converted into estrogen by our body.

Normally our body is producing both estrogen and testosterone.

Individually it could be necesarry to subtitute both. ( Low dosage of T and high dosage of E for feminization )

The relation between them is most important!

I could explain it further but only in my native language... sorry

Batman (imported) wrote: Sat Mar 05, 2011 2:40 am I was emailing with someone who was telling me that they take BOTH E & T.

Reasoning being that T helps with keeping strength up and any excess converts to E anyways. The E of course would feminize the body.

I know the steroid/testosterone abusers can grow manboobs/breasts as can men on TRT. The person claims that because they are similar hormones they aren't in conflict.

This just seems counter to everything I've learned about hormones. I mean wouldn't this be a mindfreak somehow?

Anyone???

The only reason to take Estrogen is to femization or at very low dosage to maintain bone health. Testosterone has a long half life in the body but estrogen has a very short half life. The amount of breast growth you will get with estrogen varies greatly form person to person. Testosterone is processed to DHT and Estrogen, so very high levels of T = high levels of estrogen for a man, which equals breast growth.

Also if you are a drunk and have damaged your liver, the liver can't get rid of estrogen and then they end up with some large manboobs!

_g

Yes, but this person is claiming that they take normal amounts of Testosterone as a man would need, AND of Estrogen that a MTF would need...

It isn't that they are taking a small dose of one and a larger of the other...:-\

Batman (imported) wrote: Sat Mar 05, 2011 1:46 pm Yes, but this person is claiming that they take normal amounts of Testosterone as a man would need, AND of Estrogen that a MTF would need...

It isn't that they are taking a small dose of one and a larger of the other...:-\

A normally healthy person does not need any hormonal supplement. So I don't know what your friend means at all.

Sure, the body converts excess T into E. But that does not mean we can add more of both.

Ultimately, what is his (and your) objectives from this. What do you want to achieve out of this regiment of HRT?

It is conceivable that some very unique objectives might call for such a combination, but I can't say I myself can so far think up any.

Just remember, either T or E we take to supplement or change our natural levels mean extra loads on our liver as well as the rest of the body. And many of these changes can be permanent and irreversible. So I suggest that you think through clearly what you want and what you don't want before starting to mess with your hormones.

hkeunuch (imported) wrote: Mon Mar 07, 2011 11:39 am A normally healthy person does not need any hormonal supplement. So I don't know what your friend means at all.

Sure, the body converts excess T into E. But that does not mean we can add more of both.

Ultimately, what is his (and your) objectives from this. What do you want to achieve out of this regiment of HRT?

It is conceivable that some very unique objectives might call for such a combination, but I can't say I myself can so far think up any.

Just remember, either T or E we take to supplement or change our natural levels mean extra loads on our liver as well as the rest of the body. And many of these changes can be permanent and irreversible. So I suggest that you think through clearly what you want and what you don't want before starting to mess with your hormones.

They way it started was that I want to feminize my body to a certain degree. I know it isn't something controllable and there won't be anything like too feminine or breast size...etc I'm willing to take what I get. I want to be on estrogen long enough to make some permanent changes to the body and mind.

The T + E part of it came from me posting on a site about having hypogonadism (Low T) and having to take TRT the last few years. The other person emailed me and said she was in the same boat and due to the side effects of being on TRT (hard nipples) she chose to try estrogel to feminize her body more, yet taking the same dose of testosterone at the same time.

Initially I took her at her word, but then when I really started to think about it, something just seemed completely wrong from everything I know and have read about hormones the last few decades.

As for myself, I don't plan on presenting to the world as a female, but want as much of a female shape/brain as I can achieve. After I reach that goal I will decide on which hormone to take from that point forward E or T, but not together. Also I'm taking a gel that goes on the skin, no pills (and the T was injection) so no first pass through the liver.

I am going to a Gender Counseling place on Thursday for evaluation to get professional advice too. This is a bigger step for me than changing my hormones was.

Thanks

I'm not sure I am totally following what the person is doing. Taking strong doses of both types of hormones sounds like a great way to develop high blood pressure (or worse complications), but there is some truth to the statement that testosterone and estrogen are not exactly "opposites." A more accurate term might be "homologues"... just like men and women are not "opposites" of each other; our bodies are just specialized for different specific tasks.

If a male takes estrogen, his muscle doesn't atrophy because of the direct action of the estrogen. Muscle loss is instead caused by gradual the reduction in his natural testosterone production. The *latter* is caused by the estrogen, not the former. For the most part the reverse is true of women who take testosterone.

There unfortunately isn't much in the way of scientific research that deals with combinations of hormones (I've been hunting for it for years, as I too have an interest in being muscular, but also having some subtle feminization)...

Batman (imported) wrote: Mon Mar 07, 2011 12:03 pm I am going to a Gender Counseling place on Thursday for evaluation to get professional advice too. This is a bigger step for me than changing my hormones was.

Thanks

Glad you are going to Gender Counseling. That would help sort out your goals and thereby the right course of hormonal treatments. All the best to you.

Am I wrong in my observation that Gender Counseling involves only M to F, or F to M?

I never had any gender identity issues. Born a male, and perfectly happy being a male, in fact no desire to be otherwise in any way.

My sexual orientation however has been male to male since day 1 of puberty. Never had any inclination, interest, curiosity, craving, desire, etc. to physically interact with a female.

However since early puberty I have had an overpowering craving to eliminate my sexuality completely and thought that castration would accomplish that.

Of course in those early days there was little to no information, no internet, no books, so much was left to wonder, guess, fantasy.

I guess I had a sexuality identity crisis. I simply wanted to be non-sexual.

It took 50 years and through one absurd method after another, I finally managed to achieve such a low testosterone level in my body that I am a non-sexual. It would have been better had I been able to rid my body of it's sexual ability 40 years ago, but that is testosterone over the falls.

I am now following a prescribed testosterone additive in order to see what amount is too much. I don't want too many low T health risks, but absolutely do not want to regain my sex drive. I never considered what impact estrogen might have. But one thing at a time. At this point I can't imagine an estrogen additive as I have no craving for feminine features. An interesting thread thought that gave me something else to ponder.

italmusclebtm (imported) wrote: Mon Mar 07, 2011 1:16 pm If a male takes estrogen, his muscle doesn't atrophy because of the direct action of the estrogen. Muscle loss is instead caused by gradual the reduction in his natural testosterone production. The *latter* is caused by the estrogen, not the former. For the most part the reverse is true of women who take testosterone.

There unfortunately isn't much in the way of scientific research that deals with combinations of hormones (I've been hunting for it for years, as I too have an interest in being muscular, but also having some subtle feminization)...

I can contribute some personal experience to your questions. As always, this is ONE possible outcome, not a rule...

After my castration at age 28, I went without HRT for about a year. I had surprisingly minor symptoms of T deprivation, mostly a decrease of libido and noticeable changes of skin and hair.

I´m a rather athletic person and was quite muscular to begin with. After one year, I had lost a little bit of muscle mass, and especially definition - a smoothing effect of more subcutaneous fat. Also, muscle hardness and maximum strength decreased noticeable.

As precaution against bone loss I started taking a low dose of E and very low doses of T; within weeks, I felt much more energetic and was able to increase my workout regimen. The next two years, I recovered pre-castration muscle quantity and quality, with feminization effects limited mostly to hair and skin.

At that time, I met my later wife, and to improve libido and potence, I increased the dosage of T - and of E proportionally, since I didn´t desire a comeback of unwished male characteristics. This led to even better energy levels and muscle build, but also to slight gynecomastia and feminine fat deposits (mons pubis, lower abdomen, hips).

Ca. 18 months later, due to some logistic mistakes, I went to a six-month project work in Africa with a new estradiol implant but no T medication. This caused a surprisingly rapid feminization, and I even had to buy bras and womens´ jeans since my own pants no longer fit. I lost a noticeable amount of muscle mass (mostly arms and shoulders) and put on fat in the typical female distribution type. I assume the lack of training opportunities played also a role. The rapid changes were a strange, somewhat scary but also exciting experience.

When I returned home, my girlfriend was intrigued by my new soft shapes and encouraged me to continue for a while. I did, but after some months there was a marked decrease of libido and we decided to put back some T into the system. At that time, I had only a bit more muscle mass than most women, and of the same softness. With the T back, muscle density increased, but since I didn´t lose the feminine fat, the overall female aspect remained until today.

So, to your question: For me it was possible to combine male muscularity with female characteristics (especially skin and hair), but when you tip the balance, feminization is rather permanent.

Hope that slakes your curiosity a bit!