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Mormons and Fruit Flies

Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 5:57 pm
by JesusA (imported)
Cutting edge research on the value of polygamy for population control:

Mormon polygamists shared the flaws of the fruit fly

Robin McKie, science editor

The Observer

Sunday 27 February 2011

In Utah, women used to marry young. In particular they married Brigham Young, leader of the Mormon Church. The religious leader had 55 wives by whom he had 56 children before he died, aged 76, in 1877. His followers had similar polygamous marriages.

But scientists have now uncovered an odd fact about 19th-century Mormons: the more women in a household, the lower the average birthrate. In other words, the more sister-wives a Mormon woman had, the fewer children she was likely to produce.

"Although it is great in terms of numbers of children for successful males to have harems, the data show that, for every new woman added to a male's household, the number of children that each wife produced goes down by one," said biologist Dr Michael Wade, of Indiana University.

The result is intriguing, because this is the first time scientists have observed humans being affected by what is known as the Bateman gradient, a phenomenon that gets its name from the geneticist who first observed it in fruit flies. The more sexual partners the male fruit fly had, the lower was the fecundity of each of those partners, the 20th-century geneticist Angus Bateman noted.

In fact, examples of the Bateman effect were generally rare, said geneticist Professor Steve Jones of University College London. "The decrease in fecundity of females in these circumstances is not well established. The only other example that I can think of is the Soay sheep. Males fight furiously for females, but after a few weeks the most sexually active males are firing blanks – they have zero sperm left – which means their mates are not being fertilised."

In the study of Mormon families, published in the US journal Evolution and Human Behaviour, the researchers surveyed birth, marriage and death records from the Utah population database, which covers nearly 186,000 adults and 630,000 children who lived or died between 1830 and 1894.

It was during this period that polygamy was slowly being phased out under pressure from state legislators. The results were clear: the more women partnered with a man, the fewer children each of those women had. Exactly why is not clear. Like the Soay rams, men may simply not have had the stamina. Wade says: "It could be owing to competition between women within a plural marriage for shared resources, or it could be owing to other unknown factors."

Neither was polygamy a great deal for males. For every man who had multiple wives, there were many who had none. "For every male that has three mates, there must be two who have none," said Wade. "If a male has even more mates, then the disparity among male reproductive haves and have-nots can become quite high."

The failure of the Utah polygamy experiment should therefore not be seen as that surprising

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2011/ ... -fruit-fly

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Re: Mormons and Fruit Flies

Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 8:04 pm
by Riverwind (imported)
I wonder if the study took into account that not all the wives lived in SLC he had 3 or 4 wives in a dozen different towns around Utah, Arizona and Nevada. I also seem to remember he had a couple different houses in SLC.

Mormons see him as a great leader but science sees him for what he really was, a sex maniac. :D

River

Re: Mormons and Fruit Flies

Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 8:18 pm
by A-1 (imported)
JesusA (imported) wrote: Sun Feb 27, 2011 5:57 pm Cutting edge research on the value of polygamy for population control:

Mormon polygamists shared the flaws of the fruit fly

Robin McKie, science editor

The Observer

Sunday 27 February 2011

In Utah, women used to marry young. In particular they married Brigham Young, leader of the Mormon Church. The religious leader had 55 wives by whom he had 56 children before he died, aged 76, in 1877. His followers had similar polygamous marriages.

But scientists have now uncovered an odd fact about 19th-century Mormons: the more women in a household, the lower the average birthrate. In other words, the more sister-wives a Mormon woman had, the fewer children she was likely to produce.

"Although it is great in terms of numbers of children for successful males to have harems, the data show that, for every new woman added to a male's household, the number of children that each wife produced goes down by one," said biologist Dr Michael Wade, of Indiana University.

The result is intriguing, because this is the first time scientists have observed humans being affected by what is known as the Bateman gradient, a phenomenon that gets its name from the geneticist who first observed it in fruit flies. The more sexual partners the male fruit fly had, the lower was the fecundity of each of those partners, the 20th-century geneticist Angus Bateman noted.

In fact, examples of the Bateman effect were generally rare, said geneticist Professor Steve Jones of University College London. "The decrease in fecundity of females in these circumstances is not well established. The only other example that I can think of is the Soay sheep. Males fight furiously for females, but after a few weeks the most sexually active males are firing blanks
– they have zero sperm left –
JesusA (imported) wrote: Sun Feb 27, 2011 5:57 pm which means their mates are not being fertilised."

In the study of Mormon families, published in the US journal Evolution and Human Behaviour, the researchers surveyed birth, marriage and death records from the Utah population database, which covers nearly 186,000 adults and 630,000 children who lived or died between 1830 and 1894.

It was during this period that polygamy was slowly being phased out under pressure from state legislators. The results were clear: the more women partnered with a man, the fewer children each of those women had. Exactly why is not clear. Like the Soay rams, men may simply not have had the stamina. Wade says: "It could be owing to competition between women within a plural marriage for shared resources, or it could be owing to other unknown factors."

Neither was polygamy a great deal for males. For every man who had multiple wives, there were many who had none. "For every male that has three mates, there must be two who have none," said Wade. "If a male has even more mates, then the disparity among male reproductive haves and have-nots can become quite high."

The failure of the Utah polygamy experiment should therefore not be seen as that surprising

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2011/ ... -fruit-fly

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What?

Exactly why is NOT CLEAR?

Oooowhh!

O.K. Suppose that you are a 35 year old who just was ordained prophet. Suppose that you had 4 wives already with whom you already had 7 children...

3 with the 1st wife age 34 years

2 with the second wife 27 years

1 with the 3rd wife and... 22 years

1 with the fourth wife... age 17 years...

If you are to die at 76 years old you have only 41 years left to live, however, you will acquire 51 more wives by whom you will have 49 more children.

Since 41 X 12 = 492, and supposing that you live at least 6 months after your 76th birthday you only have 498 months left to live. Furthermore, suppose your last wife, a "hottie" of 16 years fucks you practically to death and so you die as a result of having a heart attack and a weakened heart without impregnating her on your hornymoon. So she is out. That still leaves 50 wives to bear 49 children. Somebody is going to be a BUSY old fart...

This means that you have to impregnate at least one woman a year. More like it, 498 / 50 = 9.96 and so you must impregnate one woman every 9 - 10 months to keep the schedule until you die.

Suppose further that each woman can conceive only for only 48 hours in a month's time and that most of your family has NO IDEA about the human fertility cycles.

See? the numbers begin to add up. Tick tock, tick tock, your time clicks by and unless you average sexual relations with at least 1 wife a day I would think that you'd be doing pretty damned good to have 49 more children.

Especially after you started getting old. And remember, NO VIAGRA. You are on your own. All you got is what nature gave you and what you have left. You will have hypertension, arthritis and most likely coronary artery disease, not to mention arteriosclerosis that predisposes you to a clot stroke and weakened vessels which predisposes you to hemorrhagic stroke. While I have seen men perform at 76, especially with a younger woman, I have seen them die of MASSIVE coronaries or strokes while having sex OR AFTER having sex or JUST FROM an extra hard MASSIVE bowel movement. Remember,old people are prone to constipation and they are also prone to die.

Yes, I'd say that he did DAMNED GOOD... how he did what he did must have involved a miracle (or two, or more...) and pending the merger of the Catholic and the Mormon churches should qualify Brigham Young for immediate canonization, if not the Guiness book of world records and a portrait hanging on the wall of Hugh Hefners' Playboy Hall of Fame in the Hefner Playboy mansion in sunny California. Smart money is that even Hef has not fathered that many children...

Re: Mormons and Fruit Flies

Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 10:12 am
by Riverwind (imported)
You also need to figure in the travel time it took to get from one town/home to another, he traveled from southern Idaho, Utah, Nevada, and Arizona and had wives where ever he went, always a warm bed to get into at the end of the day. :D

Re: Mormons and Fruit Flies

Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 1:02 pm
by Kortpeel (imported)
A-1 (imported) wrote: Sun Feb 27, 2011 8:18 pm I'd say that he did DAMNED GOOD... how he did what he did must have involved a miracle (or two, or more...) and pending the merger of the Catholic and the Mormon churches should qualify Brigham Young for immediate canonization, if not the Guiness book of world records and a portrait hanging on the wall of Hugh Hefners' Playboy Hall of Fame in the Hefner Playboy mansion in sunny California. Smart money is that even Hef has not fathered that many children...

I don't suppose that Brigham Young fathered that many children either. Hot, pretty young wives married to an old fart? I bet there were plenty of young bucks willing to help fill their wombs.

Re: Mormons and Fruit Flies

Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 3:22 pm
by Falcon (imported)
This thread gave me a headache. :(

Re: Mormons and Fruit Flies

Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 3:46 pm
by A-1 (imported)
Kortpeel (imported) wrote: Mon Feb 28, 2011 1:02 pm I don't suppose that Brigham Young fathered that many children either. Hot, pretty young wives married to an old fart? I bet there were plenty of young bucks willing to help fill their wombs.

I suppose so.

However, (and it is a BIG however) usually several of these women lived together in separate residences as River pointed out. Marriages were arranged and women's families, both sister wives and related family, probably kept a close eye on them. So it would have to have been REEEEAL sneaky. If that would have been the case then each women would have averaged a LOT more than one child apiece. (A piece?💥)

Then there is the old adage as to why nuns always travel in pairs.

One Nun makes sure that the other Nun don't get none.

🙏

Re: Mormons and Fruit Flies

Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 8:11 pm
by moi621 (imported)
<edit>
A-1 (imported) wrote: Mon Feb 28, 2011 3:46 pm One Nun makes sure that the other Nun don't get none.

🙏

I've know at least one nun who left 'cause she 🐫 a "sister".

What do all those wives / sisters do together? 🙄

The fecundity discussion was very impressive. I am still pondering it. Pheromones possibly? Known to occur in people and insect like thingies.

Moi

Pondering Populist

Plural Marriage: Why Not?

Re: Mormons and Fruit Flies

Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 8:57 pm
by tomas.toohey (imported)
Falcon (imported) wrote: Mon Feb 28, 2011 3:22 pm This thread gave me a headache. :(

I agree headaches all round

Re: Mormons and Fruit Flies

Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2011 12:08 pm
by A-1 (imported)
moi621 (imported) wrote: Mon Feb 28, 2011 8:11 pm I've know at least one nun who left 'cause she 🐫 a "sister".

What do all those wives / sisters do together? 🙄

The fecundity discussion was very impressive. I am still pondering it. Pheromones possibly? Known to occur in people and insect like thingies.

Moi

Pondering Populist

Plural Marriage: Why Not?

Do you think that they had the "Saloon Door" syndrome?

❓

😵‍💫

🤷

🙇

You know, as in SWUNG BOTH WAYS...

:shakemitk

Well, Jesus, that sure would keep them from getting pregnant as often and it would contribute to keeping somebody from dying trying to "keep up" (...or keep it up... 🙇 )