I admit, I'm a little amazed to find that nobody has said anything about this until now. To me, this is some of the scariest, most important news that has been reported in the last few decades.

I feel it far outweighs the petty little politics that are occurring as R fights D fights whatever the hell BS the media and politicians are trying to feed you.

Laws of Physics Vary Throughout the Universe, New Study Suggests

(http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 004112.htm)

ScienceDaily (Sep. 9, 2010) — A team of astrophysicists based in Australia and England has uncovered evidence that the laws of physics are different in different parts of the universe.

The team -- from the University of New South Wales, Swinburne University of Technology and the University of Cambridge -- has submitted a report of the discovery for publication in the journal Physical Review Letters. A preliminary version of the paper is currently under peer review.

The report describes how one of the supposed fundamental constants of Nature appears not to be constant after all. Instead, this 'magic number' known as the fine-structure constant -- 'alpha' for short -- appears to vary throughout the universe.

"After measuring alpha in around 300 distant galaxies, a consistency emerged: this magic number, which tells us the strength of electromagnetism, is not the same everywhere as it is here on Earth, and seems to vary continuously along a preferred axis through the universe," Professor John Webb from the University of New South Wales said.

"The implications for our current understanding of science are profound. If the laws of physics turn out to be merely 'local by-laws', it might be that whilst our observable part of the universe favours the existence of life and human beings, other far more distant regions may exist where different laws preclude the formation of life, at least as we know it."

"If our results are correct, clearly we shall need new physical theories to satisfactorily describe them."

The researchers' conclusions are based on new measurements taken with the Very Large Telescope (VLT) in Chile, along with their previous measurements from the world's largest optical telescopes at the Keck Observatory in Hawaii.

Mr Julian King from the University of New South Wales explained how, after combining the two sets of measurements, the new result 'struck' them. "The Keck telescopes and the VLT are in different hemispheres -- they look in different directions through the universe. Looking to the north with Keck we see, on average, a smaller alpha in distant galaxies, but when looking south with the VLT we see a larger alpha."

"It varies by only a tiny amount -- about one part in 100,000 -- over most of the observable universe, but it's possible that much larger variations could occur beyond our observable horizon," Mr King said.

The discovery will force scientists to rethink their understanding of Nature's laws. "The fine structure constant, and other fundamental constants, are absolutely central to our current theory of physics. If they really do vary, we'll need a better, deeper theory," Dr Michael Murphy from Swinburne University said.

"While a 'varying constant' would shake our understanding of the world around us extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. What we're finding is extraordinary, no doubt about that."

"It's one of the biggest questions of modern science -- are the laws of physics the same everywhere in the universe and throughout its entire history? We're determined to answer this burning question one way or the other."

Other researchers involved in the research are Professor Victor Flambaum and PhD student Matthew Bainbridge from the University of New South Wales, and Professor Bob Carswell at the University of Cambridge (UK).

To me, this is some of the biggest news out there, and something that everyone should be paying attention to, over most of the other BS that's passed off as news.

The potential discovery that the laws of the universe, at least in some part, are as universal as town speed limits is mindblowing. I admit to not being a physics expert, but to the best of my knowledge, until now it's been generally accepted that all the laws held equally everywhere. To find out there's even one exception is revolutionary.

(The SF geek within me can't help but wonder what would happen to intelligent signals at the interstices, where alpha changes....)

Not being a physicist makes me wonder if this is actual news worth reporting to the general populace. Of course the scientific world may be excited about this news, but do the laws of nature really mean anything to the average person not really. Not to me anyway my coffee still turns out the same way morning after morning and so on. However should the sun rise in the West and fall in the East I'd be concerned. I think it's wonderful that you find this type of stuff fun and amazing, to be honest I do too. The simple fact of the matter is what happens out in the cosmos really has little to no effect on finite creatures such as ourselves. In time these events may affect us but that could take billions of years to occur. I for one don't plan on sticking around that long to find out.

No! Currently man is better occupied with the petty little problems that compromise our lives then to be concerned that the laws of nature may be different in different areas of space. It is still a theory and this may take years to prove.

I tend to look at things like this as I look at helicopters mathematically they can't fly for that matter neither can Bumble bees all I know is that they do and that's good enough for me.

seriously curious (imported) wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2010 6:12 am Not being a physicist makes me wonder if this is actual news worth reporting to the general populace....

I tend to look at things like this as I look at helicopters mathematically they can't fly for that matter neither can Bumble bees all I know is that they do and that's good enough for me.

I have to agree with S.C.'s post here. I suppose this IS in fact some sort of scientific "discovery" but to me this is like "NO SHIT! REALLY?" (dripping with sarcasm) I mean seriously, is there anyone who can comprehend the "universe" and how big it really is? From what we are able to observe, it is infinite, think about that word "infinite." Endless, in the absolute real meaning of ENDLESS.

Even when I was a child, once I came to understand that the universe was infinite, I decided that anything I or anyone else could imagine had to exist somewhere in the infinite universe. That scientists "discovered" that the laws of physics as we KNEW them previously are not "universal" in the universe... well no duh! I imagine that somewhere in this infinite universe there are places where the current laws of physics are completely upended.

Even here, on this tiny spot called Earth, we have "universal" adages and maxims that are clearly not "universal." Take for example the saying "The compass always points north." NOT TRUE, not universal, but still used as a guideline for navigation, and still good enough to use for a guideline in local navigation.

The laws of physics, are still quite good enough for us to use here and now. They might not apply in precisely the same way in some galaxy several hundred light years from here, but I will continue to rely on my limited understanding of the laws of physics for my short life on earth. I do not find this discovery scary at all. Maybe I am just not "getting it," seriously, is there something I am missing here? Will these changes in any way change life on this planet for the next 500 years?

IF, if you are wanting to think about something "scary" in science, I think you could cogitate on the possibility that any star can, with no warning "burp" an intense gamma radiation burst, if any star close to us did that, well life would be over on this planet. Dark matter could also just snuff out our life on planet earth. Certainly the much talked about "earth crossing asteroid" could end life on this planet. And here, on this very planet there are viruses and such that could very well end the human race. Myself, I try not to let any of this scare me, after all, there are many dangers, many that are much more likely dangers coming at me every day (e.g. traffic accidents, violent people, cancer, etc.) that occupy my thoughts.

DeaconBlues (imported) wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2010 9:23 am IF, if you are wanting to think about something "scary" in science, I think you could cogitate on the possibility that any star can, with no warning "burp" an intense gamma radiation burst, if any star close to us did that, well life would be over on this planet. Dark matter could also just snuff out our life on planet earth. Certainly the much talked about "earth crossing asteroid" could end life on this planet. And here, on this very planet there are viruses and such that could very well end the human race. Myself, I try not to let any of this scare me, after all, there are many dangers, many that are much more likely dangers coming at me every day (e.g. traffic accidents, violent people, cancer, etc.) that occupy my thoughts.

Well put. An gamma ray burst from 6,000 light years away is a scary thought and thAT WOULD DESTROY MOST IF NOT ALL LIFE ON EARTH. There is even a star out there that scientist are worrid about collapsig and according to their calculations, the resulting quasar would be aimed directky at us. While interesting, a difference of quantum mechanic in a distant galaxy doesn't alarm me one bit.

I believe the explanation for all of these phenominae are explained in the original thesis and in other books about the theory of relativity which vary in details from each other and the original thesis set forth by Albert Einstein. All I know is that it's A-A-A-A-L-L-L-L relative.

I am fascinated by cosmolgy and physics and I enjoy popular science writing. I am not good enough at mathematics to understand the technicalities though.

I have made a real effort over the years to keep abreast of theory and to try and comprehend the implications for the universe in which we live. The more I read, the easier it is to try and visualise the scale of size we are dealing with.

There are couple of thing that do appear constant. One is that theories keep changing, new and grander ones have to be constantly developed to encompass new observational data. With increasing sensitivity of experiments the data requires ever more sophisticated and incomrehensible real life explanations to model the universe.

Each new model is further and further from our own local experiences and so cosmolgy becomes almost irrelavent to the majority of people. It is getting very difficult to discribe the evolution of the universe in terms people can visualize in their heads. Its not scary, just mind bending, if you make even a slight effort to understand what little we think we know today.

TOS,

one of the good sci fi writers (clarke maybe) wrote a series of books

called "The Hechee chronicles" about some aliens who wanted to

travel back in time and change the "fundamental" constants. (which

were thought to have been fixed shortly after the big bang.)

You might enjoy those books, for one thing they use very subtle

misinterpretaions of our physical laws to make the impossible sound

reasonable.

Shocking News!

But it happened before. For years and years the laws of Newtonian physics adequately explained the Universe - until, in certain instances, as our instruments to measure got better, they didn't; so Einstein came up with the Theory of Relativity, which filled it some of the gaps that Newtonian physics didn't, but Relativity has its limitations, too, so we also have Quantum Physics, and String theories.

The thing to remember is that none of these are laws; they're Theories, educated guesses that seem to work for most things. It's no surprise that, as our ability to measure the Universe gets better, the theories break down. I would have been shocked had they not.

In most cases, Newtonian Physics adequately explains how things in our world work, but keep in mind, it takes Quantum Physics to explain how many of the devices in your computer work, and understanding the theory of Relativity is absolutely necessary for a GPS device to work.

To absolutely know how the Universe works is to know the mind of God.

DeaconBlues (imported) wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2010 9:23 am The laws of physics, are still quite good enough for us to use here and now. They might not apply in precisely the same way in some galaxy several hundred light years from here, but I will continue to rely on my limited understanding of the laws of physics for my short life on earth. I do not find this discovery scary at all. Maybe I am just not "getting it," seriously, is there something I am missing here? Will these changes in any way change life on this planet for the next 500 years?

No Deacon I don't think you missed anything you may have equated this thread better than I did. However with that said, I say we send the Star Ship Enterprise along with her crew to investigate. I think both Spock and Data will say in unison yeah and this matters why?laugh:

Slammr (imported) wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2010 9:55 pm Shocking News!

But it happened before. For years and years the laws of Newtonian physics adequately explained the Universe - until, in certain instances, as our instruments to measure got better, they didn't; so Einstein came up with the Theory of Relativity, which filled it some of the gaps that Newtonian physics didn't, but Relativity has its limitations, too, so we also have Quantum Physics, and String theories.

The thing to remember is that none of these are laws; they're Theories, educated guesses that seem to work for most things. It's no surprise that, as our ability to measure the Universe gets better, the theories break down. I would have been shocked had they not.

In most cases, Newtonian Physics adequately explains how things in our world work, but keep in mind, it takes Quantum Physics to explain how many of the devices in your computer work, and understanding the theory of Relativity is absolutely necessary for a GPS device to work.

To absolutely know how the Universe works is to know the mind of God.

Yes, no explanation is absolute or the entire truth, but merely an approximation. We get closer to truth but never arrive. I don't think any of this means that on some planets time moves backwards. Even here on earth the "laws" of physics behave differently in different places. Water boils at 100 degrees C at sea level but at higher temperatures in Death Valley and at lower temperatures in Denver and we've known this for a long time. Cake mixes offer adjustments for high altitudes. It is only for people who learned their "science" from the Texas school board that these revelations are upsetting.