This is pursuant to trying to make up a list of books for three children who are out of school in a couple of weeks, to read over the summer. (No, they probably won't read them, but maybe one or two will be looked at.)

Anyway, I think a more general list than the one I made out, might include everybody, not just the underage, should read. To begin with, although the religions all look to me to be fabrications, most people believe in some religion, and it can be argued that the books from which the religions are derived ought to be read, just so we know what the folks around us a thinking. A list of these would include Mohammed's Koran, the Christian Bible (take your pick of translations), the Rig Veda (and maybe one or two other Vedas), the Eightfold Right Path of Buddhism (nice because it is quite short), and perhaps some of the base literature of Confucianism and Shintoism. If you live where there are a lot of Mormons, perhaps you can get some insight into their thinking by reading the Book of Mormon and the Pearl of Great Price.

As to books about science, I would guess everybody should read Darwin's Origin of Species and Wallace's Malay Archipelago, both of which deal with evolution in some measure. Newton's Principia might be recommended reading, except that he used a notation system for calculus which is cumbersome, and which was abandoned a long time ago.

I'm sure a lot of people have recommendations for a list of this type.

I agree, that in order to be considered educated, one must have a good understanding of religion, belief, and faith in society. I would suggest the abridged edition of Sir James Frazer’s The Golden Bough (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Bough) as a starting point for anyone who’s reached high school age. It’s a comparative study and is compelling reading. My father gave me a copy of Bullfinch’s The Age of Fable when I was in junior high and I loved it, but I was strange even then. The Golden Bough is a better choice.

I have argued many times that ALL Americans are Christian by culture, regardless of any religion, or lack thereof, that they may practice. It permeates the entire culture. The Bible should be required reading for everyone who claims to be educated. I would highly recommend the King James Version for the beauty of its language. It’s also the most quoted version and many passages are treated almost as proverbs. For summer reading, I would suggest starting with the book of Genesis, a powerful and poetic vision of God’s role in all of creation. I would follow this with the abominations of Leviticus – the incredibly detailed rules by which the faithful were expected to live. The poetry of Psalms is a delight to read.

In the New Testament, I would recommend Matthew, if only one of the gospels is to be read. Ideas derived from Revelation can be found widely in our culture and the book should be read in order to understand them in their proper context.

Though I have read both the Koran and the Book of Mormon from cover to cover, I would prefer to hear from members of those faiths which brief segments they would most recommend for a summer read. I’ve read parts of several different translations of the Koran, and none of them seems to be well done.

For Buddhism, my choice would definitely be The Dhammapada (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhammapada), which is quite short. This was the earliest written of the Buddhist scriptures and consists of “direct” quotations from the Buddha, as memorized by his disciples. It was compiled well after his death when a group of his disciples gathered to compose it and then it passed down in various Buddhist traditions before being put into written form. There are minor variations between the written versions, though not so great as the variations in the various books of the New Testament before they were compiled into the Bible as we know it today in the 4th century. There are a number of good translations available. I prefer the translation by Gil Fronsdal, though I grew up with Max Müller’s translation.

The best known list of essential books is undoubtedly Harold Bloom's Western Canon. Bloom is the legendary Yale critic who's perhaps the leading literary scholar in the US today. His list has occasioned much debate about what's been included or excluded, and everyone seems to be indignant about something, but everything on it is important and has helped shape our civilization. The list is far too long for someone less prodigious a reader than Bloom, but that leaves room for indulgence of personal taste. Also, there are many more recent than ancient books, which may be because the historical winnowing of recent books has just begun. Still, here it is: http://www.interleaves.org/~rteeter/grtbloom.html

P.S. Despite it's anthropological significance, I wouldn't take impressionable children and fill their heads with religion. Religion, like the ripest pornography, is best delayed until maturity.

What age are we talking about? The problem with Bloom's list is that it was meant for adults of a certain age. While Voina i mir (War and Peace) is the greatest novel ever written, it isn't summer reading for 8 year olds, and probably not for most 14 year olds. Remember a few years ago the Chicago education fraud, featured on 60 Minutes, who had inner-city kids claiming to love Fedor Dostoevskij (whose name they could barely pronounce)? While not one of the reporters dared quiz the little darlings on what they brought away from this outrageous nonsense, I knew at once she was a fraud. The subtilties and word play require some experience in the world and experience with sex to understand. The scene in The Brothers Karamazov where Alyosha goes to Mitya's slutty girl-friend depends on the reader's anticipation that the unworldy Alyosha straight out of the monastery will be seduced by the experienced hooker. Of course, master that he is, Dostoevskij foils our expectations of the cliche and creates a scene in which Alyosha converts the woman of ill repute. While it is possible for child prodigies like Mozart to tinkle the ivories with great complexity at an early age, and some kids can do calculus at 8 or master languages at 6, literature requires a certain degree of emotional maturity to create and appreciate. Even a child genius like Jane Austen lacks, in her juvenilia, the emotional sensitivity of her mature work, though the satire, irony, and humor are all there. If these kids are still in school, stick with the greats, the Odyssey, Grimm's Fairy Tales, East of the Sun West of the Moon, Kipling, and Stevenson and the like. Basically anything you can still stand to read as an adult. The only worthwhile translation of the Rig Veda is Geldner's Das Rig Veda unless their German is at the level of a nineteenth-century univeristy dissertation I wouldn't recommend it; Renou's Etudes vediques et paniniennes is too discursive and scattered to be anything more than a reference work. The translation by Griffith is incompetent and most of the Indian translations are dismally out of touch with the real meaning of the text (orthodox Hindus have a real problem translating the Rig Veda because like the Bible it is incredibly sacred but unfortunately doesn't say what they would like). The Vedic ritual is essentially a barbeque in which a cow is killed and lots of drugs are consumed, oh and the gods are invited to the party with the hint that they must reciprocate so each hymn ends with lines like "give us cows and milk and sons" or some equally spiritual message, so the Indians usually just fake it and make some crap up that has nothing to do with what the text actually says, which doesn't matter since the gods in the Rig Veda are unimportant for Hindus anyway and the Hindu god Śiva in his pseudonym Rudra only occurs in 5 very short hymns in the entire collection and Viṣnu appears in about as many. The gods of the Rig Veda are Agni the fire-god, Indra the warrior and above all Soma the drug-god. The Rig Veda is about as applicable to modern Hinduism as the Bible is to your neighbor's Christianity; the Atharva Veda is a collection of spells for cursing your neighbor's cow or making his dick shrivel up and fall off; it is a witchcraft manual. The Sama Veda and Yajur Vedas are simply offprints of the Rig Veda arranged for ritual function rather like a mass book with notes on when to sing, when to kill the cow and that sort of stuff. Needless to say in modern cow-worshipping India nobody practices this sacred stuff any more just like Bible thumping Christians fail to circumcise their sons on the 8th day of their birth but will wear clothes of mixed fibers and eat pork, shrimp, and catfish, for which transgression Jehovah has said he would kill them.

If you are going to waste time on the Bible, skip to the books of enduring value, Judith, Esther, Daniel, and Tobias. If you want pseudohistory, read Herodotus and Gibbon; they have a far better prose style.

The great tragedy of American education is that it fails to appreciate the process of maturation which is the basis of all true learning. We insist instead that kids attempt quadratic equations before they have memorized the times tables, ask students who can't scan an iambic line to write verse libre, and want kids who can't pick out Chopsticks to perform 12 tone Fibber-MacGee's-closet cacophony. The results are predictable; we have students who can neither make change without a cash register nor understand calculus, who write risible drivel that couldn't even appear on a Hallmark card and can't distinguish Musak from music.

Gareth19, most of the books you recommend are on Bloom's list. Books accessible to the young are not excluded. It seems obvious that one would choose selectively, with an eye for what would be interesting.

Bloom also compiled a one-volume anthology of great interest - "Stories and Poems for Extremely Intelligent Children of All Ages." This has short pieces, many of them great fun as well as great literature. Dipping into this might be perfect summer reading for a child.

I don't think we ask too much of our school children. We ask far too little, unless there's something new under the sun. When I went to school (admittedly long ago), it was gospel not to exceed the children's maturity. What this meant was teaching to the lowest common denominator. Bright kids had to supplement their school educations with personal study. I was lucky to live around the corner from one of the best public libraries in NY, where I learned what my teachers thought too mature for me.

Several years ago, an op-ed in the NY Times sought to expose the unreasonable demands being made on high school seniors to graduate. The writer presented five questions from the local curriculum that he thought beyond the ability of the average high school student, and the average Times reader. In each case, I had been taught the material in the 7th grade!

It's true that we afflict our children with crack-pot educational theories, but the demand for substantive learning has been falling. That's why children from so many other countries exceed ours on standard tests.

I didn't want to imply that I included the basic religion books on the summer reading list (I'm sure they wouldn't read them anyway.) My point was, that making out the list (mostly fairly easy science a natural history books, which they might find interesting enough to read) made me think about whata list for the general adult population would include. The thing is, to make a list that is short enough that people would actually read it. Bloom's list, which I've seen, is, in my opinion, too long. Only a few aficianados have actually read all the books.

A couple more books I thought about adding--On War by von Klauseqitz--it is as much about human nature as about warfare. Also, I guess, the Guiness Book of World Records, which is generally accurate, and gives you an idea of the extremes of things. Keynes' General Theory is also worth reading, since it was the first book which comprehensively treated economic management by government (albeit Keynes would roll over in his grave if he knewthe types of policies which are considered to have been inspired by him.)

Yes, keep the religious texts along with your De Sade.

Bloom's list is too long for most everyone, except Bloom. It's a lifetime's reading. But, for someone seeking books of exceptional merit and cultural importance, it's a handy source of titles.

Von Clausewitz might be a good inclusion.

The three most important books on economics have undoubtedly been Adam Smith's Wealth of Nations, Karl Marx's Kapital, and Keynes's General Theory. Bloom mentions none of them, perhaps because they fall outside what he'd consider literature or philosophy. Keynes makes heavy use of math. A book so frought with equations would probably scare off most readers, even Bloom.

I think all of Shakespeare can be on that list. Why Shakespeare? Because he understands the human condition so well and he holds a mirror up to the heart of man, even in these modern times.

"The Jungle" by Upton Sinclair .

Everything old is new again.

The behaviors that caused the hardships on others are now just displaced to Asia as America does not permit it.

I read the book in High School and believed it had the stronger effect on me then any other book I had read to that time.

There I had to also read George Kennon's idiotic book that defined American foreign policy for too many decades declaring Chinese Communist, Vietnamese Communist, Soviet Communist, etc. were all one big loving brotherhood of communist our to get the free world. Don't pay attention to those Soviet / Red China active fire border disputes although my right wing Republican High School took Kennon as gospel .

The influence, "The Jungle" had on me lasts to this day.

Moi

The International Jewish Communist Conspiracy is just a smoke screen

for the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.

bobover3 (imported) wrote: Mon May 18, 2009 10:31 am Gareth19, most of the books you recommend are on Bloom's list.

Yes, they are also on the lists of Somerset Maughm, Clifton Fadiman, and Mortimer J. Adler. Every generation has its self-appointed keeper of the flame, and most of the judgments are pretty much the same, so if you need a tour guide, I suppose Bloom will work as well as any, though frankly there is nothing in Shakespeare: the Invention of the Human that you wouldn't find in a competent community college class, and the principal thesis, that we do not get an exploration of human emotions before Shakespeare, is simply misinformed. No one who has read Chaucer's Troilus and Criseyde can possibly imagine that the exploration of human emotion and response does not begin until Shakespeare.

I was not saying we ask too much of our children; we ask the wrong things. The great failure of elementary education is that it talks down to children and loses their respect from day one. I once attended a presentation in which an educationist was examining the teaching of teacher Mr. O. It seems that Mr. O's second-grade class of Hispanic and first generation Vietnamese was performing at or above grade level on all means of assessment, and the question was what the hell was going on because these were kids who were destined for failure. The educationist walked into Mr. O's class and NONE of the children looked up. They all had work to do and they were at it! They were all on task for the entire class period. Moreover, Mr. O, in the parlance of the day was not "accomodating the students"; that is he didn't talk down to them or speak in a slower voice, he spoke to them in the same voice he used with adults. He worked the room, checking on each child's progress. If satisfactory, he put a happy face on it and assigned more work; if not, he explained the task and gave a similar assignment for the child to try again. If the child hadn't finished the material, he or she stayed and finished it during recess. If you know how to do things and you show children how to do them, they can accomplish wonders, but if you don't know the subject you are teaching, you'll get crap.

BTW, every educationist in the room was absolutely horrified to know that someone like Mr. O was in a classroom doing all the wrong things and were greatly concerned with either getting him "reeducated" or fired.

Perhaps rather than reading lists, children need library cards and more library hours. And I would be suspicious of anyone who puts Dickens on his list. As C.S. Lewis sagely observed, "Dickens, most of him, is bad." Of course, some slight acquaintance with Dickens is necessary to understand the pointed satire of him in The Warden, and as you read the rest of Trollope's novels you note the difference between a novelist like Trollope who can create Barsetshire and its characters and journalist like Dickens who specializes in constructing preposterous stages and mawkish caricatures. Again, as Lewis noted, it is not the bad people in Dickens, they are fairly innocuous, but the good people who are the problem; they make you loathe virtue. Has there ever been a creature more ineptly misconceived than Dickens's loathsome Lucy Manette?