With all you guys pontificating about God, religion and the church on this board I thought I’d have my say. You may have noticed I’ve kept out of it until now.

The only defensible religious position is agnosticism.

There is no conclusive proof for or against the existence of a supreme being, unless you consider the whole of creation to be that.

Is faith a virtue or mere gullibility? Perhaps the best available evidence for the existence of God is the fact that millions of people have sincerely believed in him down through the centuries. However psychology has shown that most people have a strong need to make sense of their lives and the idea that a god has a purpose for their lives satisfies that need.

There is good evidence to show that even early hunter gatherers had some form of spirituality in their make up, as demonstrated by artefacts and natural objects placed in graves of people who died long before civilisation began.

Organised religion began with civilisation. In Ur (from whence possibly came Abraham) as in any other city since then there has always been a primary need to maintain law and order. Organised religion with its code of ethics was one way to keep the majority of people under control. Then law enforcement had only to deal with the minority who were disaffected who were prepared to take a chance.

The priesthood have always claimed divine authority for their teachings and people accepted their claim and teachings as true. That has been the case from the dawn of civilisation until today. It doesn’t seem to matter much what creed was taught, the people accepted it as a divine revelation.

Science however has taught us a lot more about creation than any religion. Science deliberately keeps religion out of its deliberations because, so far, every phenomenon has been discovered to have a natural rather than a supernatural cause. There has been no need to hypothesize a divinity as the cause for anything discovered to date.

Scientific discoveries are coming at an ever faster rate. We are on the threshold of understanding particle physics, recreating the circumstances billionths of a second after the big bang and getting to grips with the baffling, mysterious phenomena of quantum mechanics. In biology we now have a good understanding of how life itself works.

One problem with science is: the more we learn the more we realise there is to be discovered and learnt. Shakespeare’s “There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio than are dreamt of in your philosophy” is probably the truest thing he ever wrote.

Yet none of it proves or disproves the existence of God. The more we learn about creation, the more clever and wonderful we perceive it to be. It is possible to attribute it to a supreme intelligence who conceived it all. Or it just is. We don’t know. Yet.

The other problem with science is that, good as it is at ‘how’ and ‘what,’ it cannot tell us ‘why.’ It doesn’t claim to. It is religion that attempts to answer the why questions yet one cannot help but notice that God himself (herself?) hasn’t been very forthcoming in terms of ‘why’ revelations. There is more in the good book about who you can have sex with, and even more about who you shouldn’t, than there is about the grand scheme of things.

The one thing that I am sure of is that those who claim to know God’s will and who make pronouncements in God’s name are suspect.

So I try to keep an open mind and - certainly – beware of false prophets.

Kortpeel

PS Gee - but I can't wait for the political discussion section to open again.

Kortpeel (imported) wrote: Fri Nov 07, 2008 2:51 am With all you guys pontificating about God, religion and the church on this board I thought I’d have my say. You may have noticed I’ve kept out of it until now.

The only defensible religious position is agnosticism. ....

So I try to keep an open mind and - certainly – beware of false prophets.

Kortpeel

PS Gee - but I can't wait for the political discussion section to open again.

I have to say I'm with you on this one, Kortpeel. But for me it boils down to a much simpler matter. Having once been trapped in the religious web, washed in the blood (that's a Christian way of saying I was baptized and assured of "salvation" and a place in heaven), and attended church regularly, so I know wereof I speak. And the "simple matter" is this: Religious people state that some god (Jehovah, Allah, Krishna, take your pick) actually exists and then deliver a whole string of theological ifs, ands, buts, and other stuff, things you MUST believe, things you must NEVER do, blah blah blah. But what all these religions have in common is this: There is not one shred of evidence to support those claims. And I mean "EVIDENCE" in the Western civilization, scientific and/or historical sense.

It is not up to anyone -- you or me or anyone else -- to have to disprove a religion. IT IS UP TO THE PERSON OR GROUP MAKING THOSE CLAIMS TO PROVIDE THE PROOF. (Apologies to the ALL CAP police, but I was making a loud point, so yes, I was shouting.) That is the way claims are weighed, not be the person hearing such claims but by the person making said claims. So all you Muslims, Christians, Jesus freaks, or whatever used religion you're selling, prove your claims. Religions invariably rely on calls to "faith" and that's another way of saying, "We have no proof." They have no proof, so you must take it on faith. Or if you do go out of your way to start analyzing a religion and its literature, you find that it is patently ridiculous and does not quite jibe with known historical reality...case in point, Christianity and the New Testament... Jesus probably did not exist as a real, historical person, but you'll get thousands, nay MILLIONS, of people coming out of the woodwork declaring that he did, and that if you don't believe it you just have to take it on faith. You can believe any stupid thing you want to, but proving it is another matter. Why do you think the Christian church killed so many heretics and non-believers over the centuries? It's because what they lacked in proof they made up for with threats and violence.

So that's it in a nutshell...any religious person, no matter what brand of used religion you are selling, prove it. Prove it scientifically, historically, and disprove all the many books and scholarly treatises that call your religion into question.

The burden of proof lies with the person making the claim. And so far, after CENTURIES of making the claim, the Christian church (as well as the Muslim gang, and the Hebrew gang, and the other gangs around the world) they have offered only old documents of questionable origins, a lot of hooey and faith, appeals to emotion, magic tricks, "miracles" and assorted other techniques, but no proof as we in the West define the term.

So those who are in a quandary about religion, just ask your local door-knocker, tract distributor, preacher, priest, pastor, voodoo witch doctor, or whoever is selling used religions door-to-door...ask them for PROOF, and don't settle for anything less, and certainly don't settle for "faith" because then you really DO know that they have no proof.

With the political section closed, it is nice to have a noncontroversial topics like religion and creation to discuss...

Your afore mentioned posting was spot on in my humble opinion.

You know, the 1st Amendment states that we can have freedom of religion. After putting up with religion for 62 years I finally broke free and now have freeom FROM religion. I feel so much better now. REALLY! I watch people try so hard to defend their beliefs, and they get so emotional, and argumentative, and even hostile over religion, of all things. If religion can't bring one inner peace and the ability to live and let live and be tolerant what good is it?

I wish people would exercise such passion about defending democracy and freedom. But many seem passionate only about building the foundations of their particular religion into our US and State constitutions, thereby undermining the foundations of a free society and democracy.

YOUR religion, whatever it is, is just fine with me. Believe whatever the heck you want to believe. But when people of any religion start to build their beliefs into law, then I start to get passionate and I am committed to defending freedom and putting a halt to that particular religion's agenda. I remain tolerant of the religion itself, but not of its participants trying to mis-use the principles of democracy.

Religion, or more particularly, the vocal aggressive assertive participants of some religions, make me more convinced than ever that I want nothing to do with religion. As such humanism has become the foundation of my life.

It works for me. Maybe not for you. And SO WHAT !

I don't condemn beliefs, I condemn acts....acts that infringe on my freedom, my rights and on democracy. You practice your beliefs your way, let me practice my beliefs my way, and we both tolerate each other.

Hey, what a novel idea: TOLERANCE. Not acceptance. Not agreement.

Just something as simple as learn, try to understand, agree, disagree, but don't go around trying to force, via law, everyone else to believe, think, act in a way that you think is the ONLY way to believe, think, act.

Constitutional amendments to prevent same-gender marriage, for example, are created by persons who have strong religions convictions. And they believe so strongly that those convictions are the ONLY way that someone should live their life that they weasel those convictions into law.

But in a democracy, even the majority cannot always prevail, especially when the rights of the minority are denied, especially when religion is involved.

Example: Quakers in Australia, Canada, England, Ireland (Democratic Societies) accept and perform same-gender marriages. Imagine that: QUAKERS. Who would have thunk. Belgium, Canada, Norway, North Africa and Spain permit legal same-gender marriages.

One of the 3 branches of Quakers in the USA also accept and perform same-gender marriages. So, now we have constitutional amendments in States that deny this bonifide religious group the right to practice their religion in the way that they find acceptable, in a global way. As such, constitutions have been amended in such a way as to restrict freedom of religion.

Differences in personal personal beliefs, civil laws, religious beliefs are causing us to spend too much time in conflict. We need to work together to improve our economy, our education, our health care, our international relations. If we can't tolerate one anothers beliefs or religions we are going to continue to flounder in an unending unsolveable loop and be flopping around like dying fish on the boat deck, accomplishing nothing until we die.

Kortpeel (imported) wrote: Fri Nov 07, 2008 2:51 am The only defensible religious position is agnosticism.

Kortpeel

I absolutely agree. Atheists are just as arrogant as are Christians and Muslims. An infinite God, if he exists, is, by definition, unknowable. If he exists, any definition of him, all of them being wrong, is as good as any other. Each is just a means of putting him in a context comprehensible to the finite mind. I have no problem with anyone holding to any religion. I strenuously object to someone trying to impose his religion on me or on society.

Well,

I like my agnostics in the mourning fried over easy with soft yolks with a side order of fried ham and bacon. Also, a short stack of pancakes with extra maple syrup to sweeten things up a bit. White toast to sop up what is left of the yolks with polyunsaturated margarine and some grape jelly. A glass of cold milk and some diet coke because more than 2554 calories is a little much before lunch.

But take my advice, before you eat this mess every day of your life you had better say a blessing or two over it or keep a cardiologist on retainer... the blessing route is the best way to go as it costs nothing to pray to a God who you don't know is there or not rather than to pay a cardiologist that you might never need. Either way you elect to go it is a gambil.

When your 30 days are up you will be glad to go back on a diet and discuss the polite delicate subjects other than those of region, agnosticism and bacon and fried cowboys and girls, Mavens, Mustangs and Sugarfoots who live west of the Mississippi...or on a great lake somewhere.

...or perhaps we can make a code between us that nobody else understands but us and discuss the FORBODDEN in a language that uses symbolism of animals (not Amahls) or numerical codes.

I for one could make the enigma such that diarrhea might plague your nemesis to the point of brown britches and shirt tails. If this is your wish may Jesus be your guide and we can simply hope for better times or wait until hookah comes again, blowing smoke from a thousand points of hoes. In the throes of laryngiospasm choking at a chant of our fathers maybe we might again swallow the nefarious flagellant crusader and spit out goober into the dustbowl of global warmth causing a hurricane of biblical proportions.

Meanwhile the fountains of the deep shall burst forth reguritating bile from the innermost sanctum of the everlasting magenetic field of the heat engine magnanimous with spin after spin sucking you ever deeper into the chasam of the valley of templates.

So ride the great laser my friends and seal off your hemmorhoids and bleed no more. It is over for a time and half a time and the great chocolate face will be your savior forevermore. Gone will be the days of selfishness and everybody pulls their weight. He of the red habit agrees that happiness comes to those who demand it and pull a glove over it, coloring the fingers with a red marks-a-lot and making farting noises like squeezing a dead chicken.

So shine up your binoculars and don't look at the sun, rather save your eyes for the jealous moon who deserves your attention much more by not blinding you for looking closely at her light. Save your sayings and sharp tongues for those who have not paper asses that smoke at heat and rip in the rain.

If you understand this code then Jesus will acknowledge you if you PM him in the morning and partake of the survey of why you are not nuts. Remember, he who attempts to ride that pail in the house will oft fall to his death from the saddle into the snowdrift of the cold, cold folly deep freeze. Furthermore, seeing the bear does not a bare hunter make. Mash your Idaho Potatoes with much canned milk and not fresh creme. 2% milk and butter beat properly in a can chip off 2012 chunks. Add one fresh hunk and a monestery full of monks to consume the results. Poke not holes in your pail because you may need it again and it is no good if it will not hold water.

Did you get all of that?

A-1 (imported) wrote: Fri Nov 07, 2008 11:40 pm ...or perhaps we can make a code between us that nobody else understands but us and discuss the FORBODDEN in a language that uses symbolism of animals (not Amahls) or numerical codes.

I for one could make the enigma such that diarrhea might plague your nemesis to the point of brown britches and shirt tails. If this is your wish may Jesus be your guide and we can simply hope for better times or wait until hookah comes again, blowing smoke from a thousand points of hoes. In the throes of laryngiospasm choking at a chant of our fathers maybe we might again swallow the nefarious flagellant crusader and spit out goober into the dustbowl of global warmth causing a hurricane of biblical proportions.

Yea verily Old Poop thou art one of the false prophets and thine entropy will surely decline and the black knight with the luminous sabre will wreak his vengeance upon thee for using false metaphor to speak of that which he hath forbidden.

Knoweth thee all that there will be poverty and hardship in all the world and all those that conjoin with their maternal parent will suffer greatly and justly so. Those blessed with wealth and wisdom will see their fortunes grow for such is the way that it has always been and shall ever be so.

The poor will suffer because that too is the way that it has always and their only hope is to remove their stones that their numbers may become less and then shall there be sustenance for all: ova fried in saturated fats and laminations of meat from swine so that diseases of the heart will come upon them and slay them and there be none left and then shall the rich remove the faeces from their proctal regions with their own hands and perform other vile chores for themselves. Then they will cry unto their god, Oh Dollar why hast thou forsaken us that we must wipe our own assholes? and Dollar will reply Thou art sinners whose greed and pelf destroyed the world I gave thee and thou didst not let my bounty trickle down unto those over whom I gave thee dominion. So wipe away ye who conjoin with their maternal parent for I love thee not.

For he that hath ears, let him hear.

Kortpeel

Kortpeel (imported) wrote: Sat Nov 08, 2008 2:36 am Yea verily Old Poop thou art one of the false prophets and thine entropy will surely decline and the black knight with the luminous sabre will wreak his vengeance upon thee for using false metaphor to speak of that which he hath forbidden.

Knoweth thee all that there will be poverty and hardship in all the world and all those that conjoin with their maternal parent will suffer greatly and justly so. Those blessed with wealth and wisdom will see their fortunes grow for such is the way that it has always been and shall ever be so.

The poor will suffer because that too is the way that it has always and their only hope is to remove their stones that their numbers may become less and then shall there be sustenance for all: ova fried in saturated fats and laminations of meat from swine so that diseases of the heart will come upon them and slay them and there be none left and then shall the rich remove the faeces from their proctal regions with their own hands and perform other vile chores for themselves. Then they will cry unto their god, Oh Dollar why hast thou forsaken us that we must wipe our own assholes? and Dollar will reply Thou art sinners whose greed and pelf destroyed the world I gave thee and thou didst not let my bounty trickle down unto those over whom I gave thee dominion. So wipe away ye who conjoin with their maternal parent for I love thee not.

For he that hath ears, let him hear.

Kortpeel

Well now doesn't that just make everything perfectly clear !

Now I understand why the discussion of religion is in the Book Of The Deep Dark Cellar.

hugs and kisses.

The best series of posts I think we have ever had.

River

I have been an agnostic since I was eighteen and, after a brief flirtation with advaita Vedanta, I have returned to the fold. Some, who do not understand the distinction between agnosticism and atheism have called me an atheist.

I have tried to explain to them (an effort as futile as addressing sermons TO stones) that atheism requires faith. I can no more prove the non-existence of God than I can prove God's existence. There is no crucial evidence in support of this conclusion.

As I cannot accept the non-existence of God without evidence, if I were to take the atheist position, I would be making a statement of faith. I am not capable of such faith as to deny the existence of God without proof. Therefore, I must, perforce, admit my ignorance, and remain an unabashed agnostic.