John (imported) wrote: Mon May 26, 2008 7:45 am Have you ever met the three guys live and seen how the world around them react when for instance they come into a petrol-station to pay for the fill-up and talk in a soprano-voice on a spot where you should be adult to do things. Another situation I would be interested to see/hear about is if an eunuch with soprano-voice calls somewhere where it will be a business-relation where the seller being called up must be sure he/she sells to a grown up as youngsters aren´t allowed to handle money without parents signing for them.

this is tough problem is true for guys that are not gone through puberty. The guy I talked 10 years ago, said me that nobody takes him seriously if met face to face, due to his boyish appeareance, despite he was around 25 or 26 or so at the time. Can't remember anymore.

He told me that at school, especially at highschool it was like a hell. He was weaker than other and easy object to make fun of.

For me it seems that everyday life is not so easy for BtE..

Society does not accept such eunuch boys.

E.

....

C van D (imported) wrote: Thu May 29, 2008 11:11 pm One of the disputed after-effects concerns erections. There is a great deal of anecdotal material (the tale of the First Eunuch and many others) suggesting that sexual potency is not affected. However, the contributions in this thread all point to the fact that, after castration, a boy's facility for "schoolboy erections" - those 2- or 3-inch efforts that little girls find so amusing at bath-time) is lost. This makes sense. What would have been the point of castrating page-boys in pre-revolutionary France (some say the practice still goes on) if they could still get erections afterwards and "do it"?

Some of the contributors say that not only are the boys unable to masturbate, but lose all desire to do so. Again there is anecdotal material on the other side. Shakespeare's Mardian in "Antony and Cleopatra" admits to very strong sexual longings, though he can do nothing, and the young man in Voltaire's Candide, castrated in Naples as a child, makes a similar admission. It would be interesting to explore this further...

C van D

...FIRST OF ALL, C van D, THIS IS NOT directed primarily at you, I AM, however, using YOUR QUOTE as a seeming consensus of this thread, and please DO NOT take this personal, any of you, because I am raling against society that has placed all of us where we are today... O.K.?

Regardless of what one may think, theorizing about the feelings of a child who has been abused in such a manner is PURE conjecture.

Consider that the brain is the sex organ that controls the sex organs. AS is the case with infants who are blinded at birth and shortly after, if the mechanical sight function is restored during adulthood, or after the neurological developmental stage where sight develops, and the nerve signals start reaching the part of the brain that 'sees', they are still blind because the part of the brain that 'allows' them to see has not developed properly. This area of the brain atrophies if not stimulated at the proper development stage.

Consider the subject at hand and KNOW that if in addition to the so-called 'involuntary' reflexes that causes sexual arousal that are being curtailed, the part of the brain that functions as an erogenous zone will also not develop if an intervention is performed at a formative stage of human development.

Therefore, describing, appreciating or having the 'joy of sex' for such an individual is just as meaningless as a blind person describing, appreciating or having the color red, green or blue presented to them.

The situation of a child or an adolescent coming to a physician and saying "Doctor, I want you to remove my eyes" is NOT dissimilar to a child or adolescent coming to a physician and saying, "Doctor, I want you to cut off my sexual organs."

If you want to get biblical remember, the Bible says something to the effect of, "...if thine eye offends thee, pluck it out." I believe that this is pretty fucked up if taken literally, which is another reason why funDamnedMentalism of ANY religion should be banned.

Regardless of the method that you use to justify castration and/or sexual mutiliation of a minor, of either sex, it is rightfully designated a crime and it is rightfully illegal. Turning the minor to a mindset that causes them to make such a request is not much better than convincing them that they need to be blinded and then seeing to it that it happens. This is child abuse and the same kind of psychological abuse that causes this can also be used to incite children to homocide and/or suicide.

Abuse is abuse and regardless of how you look at it. IF a child, male OR female, actually expresses such a desire to be blinded or neutered to a medical practicioner, then they are a deeply disturbed individual, and are in DIRE need of Psychiatric intervention.

The same goes for a child that is homocidial or is suicidial.

I cannot believe that this thread has went this far and that the mindset of the E.A. regarding adulthood and choice is being visited upon children before it is even suspected, let alone KNOWN if they are transgendered, gender dysphoric or have some other sexually related trait that MAY cause them problems in adulthood.

Damn this MODERN medicine! How could you justify a DOUBLE MASTECTOMY on a FIVE-YEAR-OLD female who carries the BRAC-1 or BRAC-2 genetic trait for breast cancer? This neutering children before puberty is not a damned bit different.

IF YOU ARE SERIOUSLY PROPOSING THIS THEN WHERE IN THE FUCKING HELL IS YOUR HUMANITY?

HAVE YOU NO MERCY ON A CHILD? WOULD YOU MAKE THE SAME TYPES OF ARGUMENTS TO HAVE A CHILD BLINDED OR TO CAUSE THEM TO KILL OR TO BE SUICIDIAL?

A child will not even consider sexual matters until adolesence unless they are exposed to sex by abuse. Neither will they consider being blinded unless we connect some sort of abusive process with their ability to 'see'.

Neither will they be suicidal or homocidal unless they are conditioned to HATE themselves or others...

Regardless of your DENIAL, pressuring children over matters sexual is abusive, and IF IT HAPPENED TO YOU, IF YOU HAD THESE FEELINGS AS A CHILD, THEN YOU WERE ABUSED.

THINK ABOUT IT...

soapbox::shakemitk

The following is from a local newspaper story.

It seems sports minded high school boys like

to surprise each other with a hard kick to the

privates expecting the sports jock shield to be

in place.

Well, one receiver who was not wearing his

shield had one nut ruptured and removed and

there was questions whether the other one

could be saved. No follow-up story was seen.

Thus an adolescent may be castrated.

All legal and proper in a developed western nation.

moi621 (imported) wrote: Fri May 30, 2008 6:29 pm The following is from a local newspaper story.

It seems sports minded high school boys like

to surprise each other with a hard kick to the

privates expecting the sports jock shield to be

in place.

Well, one receiver who was not wearing his

shield had one nut ruptured and removed and

there was questions whether the other one

could be saved. No follow-up story was seen.

Thus an adolescent may be castrated.

All legal and proper in a developed western nation.

Yes and if a responsible school board sees this as an on-going problem they should MANDATE that the kickers be REMOVED from the ALL school athletic programs PERMANENTLY, no exceptions.

That, would stop it.

As a matter of fact, in EVERY STATE, this is Assault and Battery and it is illegal. The offender can be brought up on juvenile charges and expelled from school for Assault and Battery on another individual.

They can also be sued in a Civil action if permanent damage is done

This tough problem is true for guys that hav

erikboy (imported) wrote: Fri May 30, 2008 1:24 pm e not gone through puberty. The guy I talked 10 years ago, said me that nobody takes him seriously if met face to face, due to his boyish appearance, despite he was around 25 or 26 or so at the time. Can't remember anymore.

He told me that at school, especially at high school it was like a hell. He was weaker than others and was an easy object to make fun of.

For me it seems that everyday life is not so easy for BtE..

Society does not accept such eunuch boys.

E.

In every school, there should be a broad policy that makes that type behavior unacceptable, and enforce that policy strongly. (Most school districts in the US are finally starting to adopt such policies, but not fast enough. States like Vermont is very aggressive about this issue. UK districts are far better about the issues involved.)

I can see how those issues could be a problem for BtE's. It depends on how much support and protection the parents, school, and those around him can and are willing to provide. This is true for all boys, whether it be natural, accidental or medical, when it before puberty or during early puberty. (Klinefelter's Syndrome seemed have to be treated in adulthood in the past. I don't know how it is treated now.)

When I was in high school, boys were hitting puberty about 2 years later than they do now, and teasing was rare back then. Some boys hadn't (visibly) started puberty until they senior year, most by 15 though. The school, in general, teachers, classmates and friends would have it stopped any teasing immediately.

The quick answer, the one Tim uses, is that he had cancer (not true, but...) as a boy and lets it go at that. People, especially adults, know what that means. I believe that more people are becoming aware that testicle cancer can occurs in young people, mostly due to Lance Armstrong's case.

Tim has always participated in sports where litheness and speed, more than brute strength is required: swimming, track and field, gymnastics and he is a fast winger for rugby (that one surprises me a bit!). He also likes to bike when he has the time. He is in his last term in upper form at his public (tuition-based) in Wales. Since his mates in school "know" he had cancer, he doesn't get teased at all, his team mates and friends are quick to stand up for him when the rare occasion occurs, and all the boys know the school has a very strong policy prohibiting such behavior. Violation of the policy can result in expulsion.

Once the first photographic ID is obtained, like a driver's license or a passport, age is readily provable. Usually the driver's license is the first one obtained. That one usually does not require a photographic ID. Many schools, states, and countries start issuing photographic ID's to youth at a very young age.

Alex never commented about having any difficulty with that while he was in high school, before moving to Holland, where he lives now.

Jay went through puberty, so he doesn't have that problem.

Do we have anyone on the Archive that is a legal adult that never went through puberty?

-YC

A-1 (imported) wrote: Fri May 30, 2008 6:26 pm ...FIRST OF ALL, C van D, THIS IS NOT directed primarily at you, I AM, however, using YOUR QUOTE as a seeming consensus of this thread, and please DO NOT take this personal, any of you, because I am raling against society that has placed all of us where we are today... O.K.?

Regardless of what one may think, theorizing about the feelings of a child who has been abused in such a manner is PURE conjecture.

Consider that the brain is the sex organ that controls the sex organs. AS is the case with infants who are blinded at birth and shortly after, if the mechanical sight function is restored during adulthood, or after the neurological developmental stage where sight develops, and the nerve signals start reaching the part of the brain that 'sees', they are still blind because the part of the brain that 'allows' them to see has not developed properly. This area of the brain atrophies if not stimulated at the proper development stage.

Consider the subject at hand and KNOW that if in addition to the so-called 'involuntary' reflexes that causes sexual arousal that are being curtailed, the part of the brain that functions as an erogenous zone will also not develop if an intervention is performed at a formative stage of human development.

Therefore, describing, appreciating or having the 'joy of sex' for such an individual is just as meaningless as a blind person describing, appreciating or having the color red, green or blue presented to them.

The situation of a child or an adolescent coming to a physician and saying "Doctor, I want you to remove my eyes" is NOT dissimilar to a child or adolescent coming to a physician and saying, "Doctor, I want you to cut off my sexual organs."

If you want to get biblical remember, the Bible says something to the effect of, "...if thine eye offends thee, pluck it out." I believe that this is pretty fucked up if taken literally, which is another reason why funDamnedMentalism of ANY religion should be banned.

Regardless of the method that you use to justify castration and/or sexual mutiliation of a minor, of either sex, it is rightfully designated a crime and it is rightfully illegal. Turning the minor to a mindset that causes them to make such a request is not much better than convincing them that they need to be blinded and then seeing to it that it happens. This is child abuse and the same kind of psychological abuse that causes this can also be used to incite children to homocide and/or suicide.

Abuse is abuse and regardless of how you look at it. IF a child, male OR female, actually expresses such a desire to be blinded or neutered to a medical practicioner, then they are a deeply disturbed individual, and are in DIRE need of Psychiatric intervention.

The same goes for a child that is homocidial or is suicidial.

I cannot believe that this thread has went this far and that the mindset of the E.A. regarding adulthood and choice is being visited upon children before it is even suspected, let alone KNOWN if they are transgendered, gender dysphoric or have some other sexually related trait that MAY cause them problems in adulthood.

Damn this MODERN medicine! How could you justify a DOUBLE MASTECTOMY on a FIVE-YEAR-OLD female who carries the BRAC-1 or BRAC-2 genetic trait for breast cancer? This neutering children before puberty is not a damned bit different.

IF YOU ARE SERIOUSLY PROPOSING THIS THEN WHERE IN THE FUCKING HELL IS YOUR HUMANITY?

HAVE YOU NO MERCY ON A CHILD? WOULD YOU MAKE THE SAME TYPES OF ARGUMENTS TO HAVE A CHILD BLINDED OR TO CAUSE THEM TO KILL OR TO BE SUICIDIAL?

A child will not even consider sexual matters until adolesence unless they are exposed to sex by abuse. Neither will they consider being blinded unless we connect some sort of abusive process with their ability to 'see'.

Neither will they be suicidal or homocidal unless they are conditioned to HATE themselves or others...

Regardless of your DENIAL, pressuring children over matters sexual is abusive, and IF IT HAPPENED TO YOU, IF YOU HAD THESE FEELINGS AS A CHILD, THEN YOU WERE ABUSED.

THINK ABOUT IT...

soapbox::shakemitk

FISRT OFF, SEXUAL IDENTITY OCCURS AT 2 TO 3 YEARS OF AGE (REFER TO DSM-IV). GO BACK AND READ VARIOUS QUOTES AND THREADS ABOUT THE FACT THAT THE BOYS ARE INITIATING THE CONVERSATION, JUST AS BtG's AND GtB's ARE, AND WHEREIN THE BLOCKERS ARE STARTED BEFORE PUBERTY AND IT IS AT 15 OR 16 THAT THE YOUNG ADULT (IN MIND SET) IS ALLOWED TO START TO TRANSITION TO THE SEXUAL IDENTITY OF THE BOY OR GIRL INVOLVED. SEE: Transition in childhood, Q&A with Norman Spack, The Boston Globe, March 30, 2008.

JesusA (imported) wrote: Sun Jun 12, 2005 7:33 pm (http://www.eunuch.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=

13058)

DON'T CONFUSE THE "Simon Series" WITH THOSE HERE AND OTHER BOYS THAT WANT TO STAY BOYS OR WHICH THAT WISH THEY COULD HAVE BEEN ALLOWED TO. YOU KNOW WHAT PUBERTY CAUSES, SO I DON'T HAVE TO EMUMERATE (AGAIN) WHAT I DIDN'T WANT.

SPEAKING OF SUICIDE RATES: THE RATES ARE MUCH HIGHER AMONG ADULT TRANSEXUALS THAN EVEN THAT OF GAYS AND LESBIANS. IF A BOY WILLINGLY VOICES A STRONG DESIRE TO REMAIN A BOY, BLOCKERS SHOULD BE USED UNTIL HE REACHES 16, IF HE IS STILL COMFORTABLE AT 16 AS A BOY WHILE OTHER BOYS AROUND HIM ARE BECOMING YOUNG MEN, THEY ARE READY, TO TRANSITION TO CASTRATION, OR IF YOU PREFER, THEY CAN WAIT UNTIL 18, THOUGH SPACK STARTS PART 2 AT AGE 16 FOR BtG AND GtB. PART 1 INVOLVES BLOCKERS. ESTROGEN FOR BtG, OR TESTOSTERONE FOR GtB IS ONLY STARTED DURING PART 2. SIMILAR THAT ARE SLOWING BECOMING INTO WIDER USE FOR BtG'S AND GtB'S, BtE'S SHOULD BE TREATED IN THE SAME MANNER. NO MORE, NO LESS.

IN THE PROGRAM IN HOLLAND, WHEN BOYS WERE STARTED ON BLOCKER BEFORE PUBERTY, ALL 100 PARTICIPANTS TRANSITIONED TO THE SEX THAT THEY SELF IDENTIFIED AS, ALL 100 HAVE BEEN SATISFIED WITH THE OUTCOME.

THE MEMBERS HERE ARE STARTING TO DISCUSS THAT THEIR DESIRE STARTED BEFORE PUBERTY, AS MINE DID. I NEVER SAID ANYTHING ABOUT IT TO MY PARENTS, BECAUSE THEY WOULD HAVE THOUGHT ME INSANE AND WOULD HAVE TREATED ME THAT WAY, WHICH WOULD HAVE BEEN THE REAL ABUSE. I STILL HATE EVERYTHING PUBERTY CAUSED ME.

DON'T PRESUME TO SPEAK FOR THOSE OF US THAT HAVE BEEN DOWN THAT PATH.

IT WAS NOT ABUSE THAT MADE ME DESIRE CASTRATION, I JUST DIDN'T WANT PUBERTY. I JUST KNEW 2 THINGS, 1.) I DIDN'T WANT PUBERTY AND CASTRATION WOULD PREVENT IT, AND 2.) THAT I WOULD HAVE BEEN THOUGHT TO BE INSANE.

MAKING A CHILD WAIT UNTIL THEY ARE 16 OR 18 TO ALLOW THEM TO MAKE SUCH A DECISION THAT HE WANTED TO STAY A BOY IS IMPOSSIBLE. IT IS SIMPLY IMPOSSIBLE TO REVERT FROM A MAN BACK TO BEING A BOY. START THE BOY ON BLOCKERS, THEN WHEN HE IS OLD ENOUGH, LET HIM DECIDE WHICH HE WANTS: PROGRESS THROUGH PUBERTY, OR BE CASTRATED AND REMAIN A BOY.

THE TINY PERCENT OF BOYS THAT EXPRESS SUCH A DESIRE, HAS TO HAVE A VERY STRONG DESIRE JUST TO GIVE VOICE TO THAT DESIRE TO HIS PARENTS AND PROFESSIONALS.

TIM WANTED TO BE A BOY, AT 18, HE IS QUITE HAPPY AS ONE. ALEX 1S 23 OR 24 NOW, AND HAS BEEN HAPPY AS A NULLO SINCE HE WAS DONE IN AMSTERDAM WHEN HE WAS 18. (HE STARTED GETTING ANDROCUR OUT OF CANADA ON HIS OWN BEFORE PUBERTY.) JAY HAS NEVER BEEN HAPPY WITH THE FACT THAT HIS FATHER FORCED HIM TO GO THROUGH PUBERTY. YOU DECIDE WHICH CASE WAS ABUSE.

I SELDOM FEEL THAT THIS TYPE OF MAKING A STATEMENT IN THIS MANNER SHOULD BE USED, YOUR COMMENTS MADE ME FEEL IT WAS APPROPRIATE.

-YC

JesusA (imported) wrote: Sun Jun 12, 2005 7:33 pm YankeeClipper has asked, very clearly and articulately, an important question. One that I hope will be taken seriously by the members of the Eunuch Archive and responded to with thought, rather than strong emotion.

. . . .

I’m now convinced that “gender dysphoria”

JesusA (imported) wrote: Sun Jun 12, 2005 7:33 pm comes in more flavors than the psychiatric establishment currently wants to think (though I’ve talked with some who are open to change). The psychiatrist’s bible, the DSM-IV (Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders - Fourth Edition) includes a diagnostic category for gender dysphoria:

There is recognition of male-to-female and female-to-male transsexual identity

– though there’s an emphasis on treatment to “cure”

JesusA (imported) wrote: Sun Jun 12, 2005 7:33 pm it, rather than any acceptance of its reality.

. . . .

I have communicated with individuals who initially thought that they were male-to-female, but only later discovered that, not only were they not female, they were neither polar gender. I have heard of two female-to-male transsexuals who went through painful and expensive gender reassignment, only to discover that their ideal gender was “eunuch”.

DSM-IV clearly states that many individuals with

“Gender Identity Disorder”

JesusA (imported) wrote: Sun Jun 12, 2005 7:33 pm can be identified by age 4 or 5.

What sort of treatment OUGHT to be available to such children? In the Netherlands, they can receive hormone blockers to prevent puberty in the “wrong” gender, but any surgical reassignment must wait until they are adults and can make the legal decision themselves. I have heard of a case in England of a 10 year old male-to-female who is currently on androgen blockers (at the expense of the National Health Service).

Tentatively, I had termed this form of gender dysphoria

“Choirboy Syndrome”

JesusA (imported) wrote: Sun Jun 12, 2005 7:33 pm . Not because the individuals wanted to become catrati to preserve their voices, but because they were choirboy age when they were first clearly aware of their “eunuch” gender identity.

I was surprised (and pleased) to discover that Charlie Anders, in her novel Choir Boy (Brooklyn: Soft Skull Press, 2005) refers to the same syndrome when Dr. Tamarind says to the story’s hero:

The novel clearly has a strong autobiographical component. Charlie Anders is the publisher of Other magazine and is a male-to-female.

What OUGHT to be done about a very real population? I’m certainly far from reaching my own conclusion. I’d like to hear some good discussion of the issues raised.

This thread makes me question fundamental questions from many points-of-view with the result that I am still as confused as when I first read the initial post.

Tough questions. What is nature? What is at play? Where to begin? I still don't know. Nvertheless, I think that I knew myself when I was quite young, even if my forebrain had years more to mature. I did have questions about maturing. I knew that I wanted to mature, but I knew it came with a price.

This thread is worth the entire experience of being part of this forum. Great thread.

Watch that caps lock, please.

Thanks.

moi621 (imported) wrote: Fri May 30, 2008 6:29 pm The following is from a local newspaper story.

It seems sports minded high school boys like

to surprise each other with a hard kick to the

privates expecting the sports jock shield to be

in place.

Well, one receiver who was not wearing his

shield had one nut ruptured and removed and

there was questions whether the other one

could be saved. No follow-up story was seen.

Thus an adolescent may be castrated.

All legal and proper in a developed western nation.

Yes. That was true in my days in school. I'm not surprised it continues. Jocks will be jocks. Though baseball was, and still is, my favorite sport, my size and frame were better suited to soccer. Cups were optional back then for both sports. (Actually, most student athletes are also required to excel in their class work or they are suspended or removed from the team.)

When I was junior high, one player, age 12, was coming down (from my school) from trying to block a jump shot while another player (from the other town's school) was going up to try to complete the shot. The boy going up had damage to his shoulder, the other boy's testes were not salvageable. In basketball back then, no one expected that such an accident could occur, so none of basketball players wore cups. After high school, I lost contact with him, but when he graduated at 18, he had not started HRT. He didn't like the idea of taking HRT for the rest of his life.

-YC

YankeeClipper (imported) wrote: Fri May 30, 2008 11:31 pm FISRT OFF, SEXUAL IDENTITY OCCURS AT 2 TO 3 YEARS OF AGE (REFER TO DSM-IV).

-YC

So sure you are as to use bold face and fancified fonts ? !

Did I do the quote right Yoli ?

There is a better argument that sexual identity occurs in

the development of the embryo, before one terms it a fetus.

At a critical time, a splash of male hormone directs the

development of the genitalia as well as certain anatomical

brain structures.

DSM is so much PC garbage.