Hey Paolo,

Sorry you get stuck being dad and referee to us rowdy guys so much. I was honestly thankful you threw a bucket of cold water on us posting yesterday as we were taking off our shirts to fight on that other post. I wasn t being sarcastic in my thank you to you on there. It might have seemed that way in print.

I feel bad I wrecked his interesting post by getting pissed. I hope he will try his post again so I can butt out next time and let everyone comment on and continue to discuss his interesting idea.

It might be only an old and overused excuse but I m guessing a lot of us males on here just have way too much testosterone pumping in us and that s why we are so interested in our balls and what they do to us and for us. It makes us more likely to fight to. Too many bulls in the same pasture.

Anyway, just saying thanks for putting up with us roided up toughs when we get to quarreling on here. Thanks to all the moderators on here for keeping us civil and refereed when needed..

We ll try to place nice.

Back on topic and looking at paring s CIA article on researching the affects of circumcision on males psyche is hard to explain away as merely government waste. A merely wasteful report is usually published and not suppressed. If the research conclusions were so unremarkable, then why deny and suppress it ?

Also the strange silence in the press mentioned in that article reminds me of how silent and uncomfortable most people, even boys and men, are in talking about circumcision at all. Most males are surprisingly silent on surgery or lack of surgery on their own penises. Surgery that is plainly obvious to everyone who ever sees our penises.

Younger guys first learning about circumcision are usually shocked either that circumcisions occur if they are uncut. Or shocked that they had any kind of surgery on their own penis and didn t know it or ever know why it was done to them if they are already cut as infants. Some young guys say it makes them queasy to hear about how circumcision is done. Once the subject is brought up in classes or in the locker rooms, most young guys do want to know more about it. All of them in discussions do ask why its even done ? The answers never make sense to them to justify cutting off foreskins. Only the bravest kids ask about it at all in the locker rooms and showets. Junior high health classes and locker room comparisons when naked in groups are when kids actually asked questions about circumcisions and saw lots of cut and uncut penises to compare.

But most males won t even ask anyone about circumcision or why its is done for religious or medical reasons. Or ask how it is done.

But most people never even discuss it with their own cut sons to explain why they were circumcised.

That is a very hard to explain cultural silence on a subject affecting every male, cut or uncut.

here here to cutnballs2ox, I was overruled on my son because his mother wanted him to look like his older brother, he got cut

TopManFL (imported) wrote: Sat Feb 24, 2018 7:30 pm You mention the health benefits of circumcision. But, your example of African tribes with no modern hygiene falls far short of comparing apples to apples.

So, let's compare apples to apples:

Parents to Doctor: "He's perfect, nothing wrong with him. Just one thing, doctor. His brother, his father, his three uncles, both his grandfathers and two of his great uncles all had emergency appendectomies before the age of 15. Can you take out his appendix now. Just to avoid an emergency in the future."

Doctor: "But, there is nothing wrong with his appendix now. It's perfectly healthy and I can't surgically remove a healthy part of your baby, sorry"

Parents: "Oh, well, that makes sense. But, can you circumcise him?"

Doctor: "Of course, someone will be in to collect him shortly and he'll be back in your room before you know it".

Now, see the apples to apples?

1 in 10 american men have their appendix out (if they don't die from it - as I almost did) Most before the age of 12 (mine was age 10 three days after it burst).

1 in 300,000 men in Europe require a medical circumcision in adulthood.

Between foreskins and the appendix, we'd save a great many more lives with appendectomies post natal.

Continuing apples to apples

470 men die every year in the United States from Breast Cancer. Yes, Breast Cancer can affect men and kill them. That's 470 men after they go through mastectomies, chemo and radiation. Which is far less than the number of men in Europe (a mostly uncircumcised population) who die from penile cancer.

Again, if we are attempting to save lives, shouldn't we remove baby boys breast buds at birth?

Logic evades, medicine fails and parents fall trap to bad information when it comes to circumcision.

Insofar as the gross statistics you cite, you're entirely correct. However, my viewpoint is from that of the physician who sees hundreds, probably thousands of men and boys over the course of his career. True, my field was Micro-Neurosurgery but I still had to see patients in clinic and it was there I'd find their actual state of well being. If there were ever any man's jiggly, it's his genitalia, castrated or not, and I am, nullo or otherwise, it's an ongoing subject of fascination. In speaking with colleagues who practice less specific medicine that surgery, their universal complaint was patients who would show up unwashed and, those with extended foreskins seemed to feel that it was best not to wash "under there" as that damaged their penis. Now, I have no explanation for that but just to comment, dirty people are germ targets. If you want to keep your foreskin, all well and good BUT for the love of God make sure you understand or teach your boy the necessities of cleanliness....I've refused patients who on the day of surgery were so filthy that Pre-op was double masked, double gloved;....and complained to our team before the carcass was even rolled in. Doctors and hospitals do not exist to run a sort of car wash for the bug bespattered. We're here to give you a valve and ring job, not sluice you.

On a personal note. I enjoy reading your comments whether we in toto agree. Your examinations and conclusions are great examples of a thoughtful person who is interested in the topic and furthers that interest with research.

This may answer a question posed elsewhere. The shape and form of a circumcised penis skin has a lot to do with the projected size of the patient, and I do not mean just their genitals. I'm just a centimeter off 2 meters tall which meant when I was circumcised, the doctor used averages in terms of physical development which would not apply to me. Just by blind luck, I have a well shaped fold over the corona which gives me what I refer to in a non-medical term, as "good jerk room". If aesthetics are a concern, then, yes, wait until a man is in his very late teens or early 20s to have it done. But, as I've said elsewhere, I cannot imagine the sturm und drang in a contemporary household when Mom and Dad tell Junior that it's time to drop by the urologist to have surgery "there". My money is on the kid, two falls out of three....

The thing I wonder about is that all kinds of body parts can be injured, infected, host parasites, and have problems. But the male foreskin is the only one of all those human body parts that people want to cut off before there is any problem at all.

Medicine can save and cure all those other body parts with amputation as the very last resort if all else fails first. And amputation only in the most dangerous and severe cases.

But foreskins are cut off with no attempt to save them.

Freddyjack,

It is odd how women seem to be the ones deciding male infant circumcisions more than the fathers. And females so often favoring to cut their sons foreskins. Fathers seem to be ignored or over ruled by both mothers and hospital staff. How would females know what feelings and pleasures a male is losing as his foreskin is cut off? Hardly experts on the affects of circumcision or which is better for a male.

Then males wonder and worry about will girlfriends like uncut or cut penises ? Teens and 20s men get comments from both males and females in the dating process on their foreskins being cut or uncut. Females have no similar surgery in western cultures to worry about.

Lots of women do ask boyfriends and husbands to get circumcised. Men don t ask females to undergo similar surgeries.

Paolo wrote: Sat Feb 24, 2018 8:54 pm Yep, here we go again. I think this about the 15th time in 20 years...

I would guess it is more like the 20th time in 15 years. --FLO--

cutnbulls2ox (imported) wrote: Sun Feb 25, 2018 1:05 am Younger guys first learning about circumcision are usually shocked either that circumcisions occur if they are uncut. Or shocked that they had any kind of surgery on their own penis and didn t know it or ever know why it was done to them if they are already cut as infants.

Funny you say that as I had no idea as a young boy that anything was done down there, I thought I was just born that way!

Yes, that s what most infant cut boys think. Because no one ever talks about circumcision or explains it. Very young boys have to look hard to see if a small pre puberty penis is cut or not cut, especially since uncut penises can retract to look like a cut dick or roll out to look like an uncut penis to both cut and uncut boys, confusing both. Few str8 boys get to handle and compare other boys penises up close to check for foreskins.

Only when penises grow bigger at puberty and guys start really looking closely to compare how their dick stacks up to other guy s dicks does it become at all close to getting obvious who is cut and who is not. Loose circumcisions with lots of skin left can look cut and uncut in showers and locker rooms from a distance. Only the most uncut long foreskins that are not retracted, and most high n tight cut penises with no foreskin left can be spotted for certain across the room. The shorter uncut foreskins and looser cut foreskins can look either cut or uncut in fast glimpses in the showers and changing rooms.

That s why kids start asking questions at early puberty. Most young boys simply don t care much about penises and testicles before puberty anyway. Not until puberty begins and they learn about sex, and masturbation, and the intense excitement and pleasures their penises and testicles can suddenly give them. Then they start caring a lot about their own and other males genitals and sexual functions. That is the first that most boys learn anything about circumcisions and sex.

PetJohan (imported) wrote: Sun Feb 25, 2018 9:57 am BUT for the love of God make sure you understand or teach your boy the necessities of cleanliness

How to take care of your ONE intact penis:

1. Take a shower

2. Rinse under foreskin (don't use soap) - it's a mucus membrane and you wouldn't wash you tongue and the inside of your cheeks with Ivory Soap would you?

Now, how to take care of your TWENTY finger and toe nails.

1. About every two weeks, take a shower and wash you feet well

2. Dry your body well after the shower

3. One by one with a pair of toe nail clippers clip each of your ten toe nails. Don't clip too close or you will hurt yourself, don't clip too short or smelly smegma will accumulate under them over the next fortnight. Use a nail file to take off any sharp edges.

4. Now for your finger nails, take a smaller pair of finger nail clippers, one by one clip the nails of each finger. Again, not too short, not too long. Take a nail file and file off any sharp edges.

How to take care of your TWO ears:

1. Remember ears have folds (similar to genital folds). At each shower soap up a wash cloth and gently wash behind your ears and inside each fold.

2. Repeat on the other ear - yup you have to wash all those nooks and crannies and behind both ears every day.

3. About once a month, you'll need to use an ear syringe to wash out excess ear wax. (don't use a Q-Tip inside your ear canal).

---

My mother taught me all of these ways (and more) to wash every day. Why would adding (after the age of 10 or 12 and the membrane connecting my foreskin to my glans had separated) rinse your foreskin really have added that much to my shower time?

PetJohan (imported) wrote: Sun Feb 25, 2018 9:57 am I've refused patients who on the day of surgery were so filthy that Pre-op was double masked, double gloved;....and complained to our team before the carcass was even rolled in.

If patients without access to the ability to clean themselves that pre-op needs masks and protection to be near them are presenting for surgery, then a circumcision wouldn't help much.

Sure, homeless people without access to a regular shower get dirty. So, we circumcise our boys (but not our girls) to ensure that the 7" to 10" of skin under their penis is only as dirty as the rest of them? That doesn't really make much sense - providing the homeless with shower and laundry facilities would be more effective in keeping them clean.

PetJohan (imported) wrote: Sun Feb 25, 2018 9:57 am But, as I've said elsewhere, I cannot imagine the sturm und drang in a contemporary household when Mom and Dad tell Junior that it's time to drop by the urologist to have surgery "there". My money is on the kid, two falls out of three....

Yes, I agree. The young adult male would most likely have some questions:

Teenage Male: "But I am clean, I wash every day - and rinse off"

Parents: "But this will make it easier"

Teenage Male: "I'll still have to wash my ears, under my arms, my neck, my butt crack and all the other bits and pieces I own. This will save me about 10 seconds at most in the shower. What over reasons?"

Parents: "Well, it is said to stop the spread of HPV"

Teenage Male: "I've been vaccinated against HPV - three times if I recall. What else?"

Parents: "There are recent studies that show circumcised men contract HIV at a 50% to 60% less rate from female to male transmission"

Teenage Male: "So, after having 15 square inches of skin is surgically amputated, I won't have to wear a condom?"

Parents: "Well, no, you'll still have to wear a condom."

Teenage Male: "What about PrEP and PEP - how effective are they"

Parents: "Almost 100% effective"

Teenage Male: "And if I combine a condom with PEP how effective is that?"

Parents: "Even closer to 100%"

Teenage Male: "So, no matter if intact or amputated my foreskin won't improve or decrease my changes of contacting HIV if I use a condom and PEP"

Parents: "Well IF you use a condom and you use PEP, you are correct. But, what if you forget to take your PEP and you con't use a condom? It happens, you know"

Teenage Male: "True, but what if I only look one way when crossing the street? My chances of getting hit by a car increase by 50%. So, how about we just assume I'll look both ways and wear a condom and take PEP, the same way you taught me to cross the street properly?"

Parents: "Hep A and B can be transmitted sexually"

Teenage Male: "Vaccinated."

Parents: "Hep C can be transmitted sexually".

Teenage Male: "True. But thee things. 1. The condom is almost 100% effective in stopping Hep C transmission. 2. Blood to blood is required for Hep C transmission, so it's rarely transmitted via sex. 3. There is a cure for Hep C - not a treatment, an outright cure. It's expensive I know, but it can be cured".

Parents: "It looks better".

Teenage Male: "I promise to never let you see it again".

Parents: "Well, you are only 17 and until you turn 18 it's our decision"

Teenage Male: "You mean if I commit a felony in this State I can be put on trial as an Adult and sentenced to up to life in prison, because I have the requisite ability to form adult thoughts. But, when it comes to deciding to circumcise me I'm a child without any ability to have thought it out?"

Parents: "Yes."

Teenage Male: "If you take me to get circumcised I'll fight, bite, kick, scream, hit, punch, and destroy the exam room and the procedure room. I'll also call Child Protective S

cutnbulls2ox (imported) wrote: Mon Feb 26, 2018 3:24 pm ervices (or Division of Family Services) and report the doctor for inappropriate touching."

Parents: "That would be unfair to the doctor".

Teenage Male: "Checkmate".

That s why kids start asking questions at early puberty. Most young boys simply don t care much about penises and testicles before puberty anyway. Not until puberty begins and they learn about sex, and masturbation, and the intense excitement and pleasures their penises and testicles can suddenly give them.

Then they start caring a lot about their own and other males genitals and sexual functions. That is the first that most boys learn anything about circumcisions and sex.

I grew up in "the middle". I mean that literally.

My Father was born in a rural county in the midwest at home, birthed by a midwife. He is not circumcised. I also assume that all the males before him weren't either. - No exact dates but think middle of the great depression.

My older brother was born right after my Dad left the Navy. He was birthed in a clinic. He is not circumcised. Again no exact dates, but think Eisenhower was President and in his first term.

I was born three years after my older brother and was the first in my family born in a hospital. I was circumcised to: 1. Look like my Dad. 2. Look like my brother and 3. Look like the other boys.

I have two younger brothers and they were also cut at birth.

I grew up in Miami. About 1/2 of the kids in my school were born in Cuba.

OK, so how well did the reasons work?.

1. I did not look like my dad. I found out that we had different circumcision statues when he was 81 years old and had a major health problem. I helped him off the toilet. So much for "looking like dad". But more important why the hell did I care? I was in my 50's by the time I even knew.

2. My older brother. Kinda didn't work out there either did it? But, he's 3 years older than me and so really, I didn't see him naked very often.

3. "The other boys". Well, between cub scouts, boy scouts, and showering in Jr. and Sr. High School, I figured out at about 11 or 12 what a circumcision was. NOBODY, NOT ONE SINGLE BOY ever mentioned anyone else's circumcision status. We simply did not care. So much for "look like the other boys.

As you might have guessed, there really is no reason I'll believe that male genital mutilation is the parent's choice and female genital mutilation will get the doctor five years in federal prison. Stop the madness.