I had not seen this thread before, although I have been here for some time.

I feel the need to share my own experiences regarding this issue.

I still have undeveloped undescended testicles, that have never made sperm or Testosterone. I also have viertually no scrotum. As a child there were several discussions about removing the non functional orbs,but my father was opposed to that and refused to allow it.

Instead , I was given small does of Testosterone, which seemed to kick start puberty. I'll not go into all the details, but will say that some of the treatments I was subjected to were barbaric at best. Until all this started I was quite comfortable with my body, and my lack of balls. The continued treatments made me re-think my feelings about how my body looked.

Over time, I have discovered that I really am content with my lack of visible balls, and that if I had them , I would likely be somewhat gender dysphoric. I mean that should I wake up tomorrow with a normal sized pair of hangers there, I'd immediately seek someone to remove them. They are NOT correct for me .

As a "therapy " when I was a child and teen, I was introduced to several other balless boys. I came to see the way that we looked as normal, and those with balls to be abnormal. I still prefer to see a man without testicles.

One of the boys I met was one of three brothers ,all born without testicles. Michael was the youngest, and by coincidence also a strong singer. He opted not to go thru the changes he saw his brothers endure from taking HRT. Today he is 43 , still has that youthful soprano voice, and is a long limbed, slightly out of proprtion slim guy with a very short thick penis. He has always been able to achieve an erection , albeit, not super firm, and not every time he would like to. He is in a commited relationship with a partner of 15 years, and is just a "bottom". He does orgasm, but it is basically dry.

I am also more recently acquainted with a young man , who thru an adult friend got androcur starting at age 12. The result was that he did not mature at all genitally. At age 20 he had experienced no growth from the time he started taking androcur. He claims that while he did have a few erections as a teen, he was not motivated to make use of them, as he is a true gender dysphoric. Shortly after his 20th birthday, he traveled to Thailand, and had all his male genitalia removed. By request he was left totally smooth. He has no regrets, and had planned to do just that from age 12. He has even had a relationship briefly with another nullo.

Personally , I feel that we can't just allow boys to wake up one morning, and decide to have themselves castrated. Too many kids would be ruined for life because of a whim. I do believe that as a whole society must accept that there are people who wish to be neither truly male or female. We must have a system in place to accomodate these people. Teen aged boys quite rightly should not be able to make this decision without good guidance about the effects, and the limitations that it imposes.

The best thing would be to have a system where, boys can be educated about the advantages/ disadvantages of castration, so that

YankeeClipper (imported) wrote: Sun May 04, 2008 8:59 am they can make an informed decision.

This same program should be available to grown men too. there is not resaon that is acceptable, why a boy/man can't make the decision whether or not to have testicles.

I also want to say that the castrated boys I knew when I was a kid have all remained fairly close. All are successful , and very content with their lives, and not having balls has not been a stumbling block for any of them.

Raymar

Hello!

Those boys meeting the knife early in the life, how do they sound when talking, I know that they easily in several cases could sing soprano but when talking do they sound as average men or do they talk as sopranos too?

Greetings

John

About 10-12 years ago there was an irc chatroom #eunuchs on efnet. i used to be a regular visitor there. There i talked to A guy of my age who claimed to be an eunuch since age 12.

His body did not tolerate testosterone. When his puberty started he got very sick. I don't know how doctors found out the reason. There must have been somebody like dr. House

But the only real cure was to remove source of testosterone. As there was no other cure, he was castrated. He had not developed a normal male deep voice yet. I got so curious about that I wanted to hear him speaking.

So I asked him if he would like to talk with me. He had one condition, that he will call me as he did not want to reveal his number.

After several failed attempts my deskphone finally rung.

It was true. Over phone it was difficult to say whether the speaker was male or female. His voice was clearly high pitched. It was rather a boys voice, but there was sometheing else in his voice. Certainly not a male falsetto.

I think that his voice was too stable and strong for a boy.

that was my experience.

Soon after that I lost contact to him as his e-mail provider went bankrupt or something and the eunuch channel vanished.

Nonuts, please, if you recognize me... please send me a message

E.

All,

As the originator of this thread, it is good to see this level of interest in this topic.

First, in answer to the questions of appropriate age, please see: Transition in Childhood (

JesusA (imported) wrote: Sun Jun 12, 2005 7:33 pm http://www.eunuch.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=

13058)

Though this covers BtG and GtB instances, the same thing should be considered an appropriate approach to BtE issues.

My original thinking was it would be best to directly castrating a boy with thorough evaluation to determine if it should be done. This was before I was aware of androgen-blockers like Androcur. After considerable discussion in this thread, I have come to agree with the positi

YankeeClipper (imported) wrote: Sun May 04, 2008 8:59 am on that puberty can and should be

delayed until the boy can make an informed decision.

Given that Dr. Spack allows transitioning to begin at age 16, after several years of review (usually by the time they come to his clinic, the gender is not in question, the child has been living in the way they feel is proper for them), that should be the appropriate age for a BtE also. Again, Holland starts transitioning at 14, with a 100% success rate. That success rate speaks volumes about a child's maturity about an issue that this important to and about them.

Started before puberty, Androcur (and other blockers) allows a boy to remain that, while he observes other boys of his age becoming (young) men. If he remain comfortable as he is, rather than becoming an adult as his classmate are, castration, at 16 (or 14? Tim...), is then appropriate. This the same age that is the baseline for BtG and GtB.

It is now (generally) recognized, by psychiatrists, that sexual identity (male or female) is set by the age of three. From the discussion here, it seems that the common rough age for a boy's desire to remain a boy is between 7 to 10. Tim seems to have been around 9 or so.

See Jesus' article about a NPR broadcast concerning the issue for "presenting" (transgenderism in children) for further reference:

Support Your NPR Station (

JesusA (imported) wrote: Sun Jun 12, 2005 7:33 pm http://www.eunuch.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=

100952), for an excellent review of preadolescent gender identity disorder and how to address it.

Here comes the biggest issue of those that boys that simply want to remain boys - "presenting." In each of the cases cited in the above referenced threads, the children (BtG) "presented" at between 2 and 3 year of age. For BtE, there is no ready way to make it clear to parents that they want to remain boys.

At 14 though, Tim was able to convince his mother (single parent) that castration was appropriate. Without the overriding dominance of a father, he was allowed to make the decision on his own (though decision is not really accurate, I guess acknowledgment is more accurate). The one thing he never told me directly was when he came to the realization that he wanted to remain a boy. I think though, it was around 9 or 10 (not atypical). He was very lucky that his testes were never functional, since at 14, it would have have otherwise been too late in all likelyhood. (see previous posts about him for additional information). He was castrated shortly after he turned 15.

In his case, I think music and remaining a boy are indivisible. From my many discussions with him, it was more that just his singing that was part of the reason to remain a boy. He saw other boys mature into (young) men, and he felt that it would be wrong for him to become one. The key indicator here is that he is comfortable as he is, he watched the boys around him mature physically, even before he would have hit puberty, and never wanted to be like them.

Medically, it would not have happened, but that was not discovered until he was castrated, he had vestigle testes. It's why puberty had not started by the time he was 15.

A unique intersection: A boy with a love of music and the desire to remain a boy, a consenting mother, and a lack of functional testes. The lack of either of the latter would have made the first impossible.

I have a very serious concern about "bricks meeting balls," yet I do not know what the best method is that can allow boys to make their concerns known before age 16, when it has become too late to prevent the changes already occurring.

I would like to get Dr. Spack involved in the BtE issue, but I would not know how to approach him about this topic. As with BtG, the danger of self-mutilation for BtE is just as real.

See my initial thread and post #3 in this thread, and you can understand why I started this thread.

There remains a considerable difference in age between "knowing" and being to act on that knowledge, but the child should not be forced to live in the body that was forced on them by parents and doctors because they were too young to have any input into the discussion (if there even is any).

We need many more Dr. Spack's and the retirement (though not soon enough) of "Doctors" like Dr. Zucker.

My 10-million question: how can boys really get their needs across?

It will take a lot of education of doctors, like Dr. Spack. to understand that there is, in fact, a third group, BtE, who's needs must be addressed in an appropriate manner, without the need for a trip to Holland.

The last time I chatted with Tim, his voice was up to high E, and he slowly lowering the bottom end of his range. He does not regret, at all, the choice he made. He was on in the last month or so, but I was not on at the same time.

Contrary to Consider's statement above, castrati are not counter-tenors, they are sopranos that are able to develop a broader voice range, higher in range than a counter-tenor (even sopranos), clearer, brighter and richer. The lungs become larger giving him more power, the voice box gets slightly bigger as the boy continues to grow slowly, and the vocal cords get tighter as a result, giving the boy the unique range and qualities. Since the boy's voice is in his natural range, not a falsetto, the voice can develop more vibrato.

Counter-tenors are tenors that use falsetto to reach into the alto range. Their voice is flat in comparison to a soprano, and even more so to a castrati's, and the vibrato is very weak or missing. It would NOT the Vienna Men's Choir, the voices would still be that of the soprano (and castrati, if there are any in the choir; I have come across statements that claiming one or the other).

A "high" tenor does not reach the sames octave that a counter-tenor does, but no falsetto is used, so the voice remains strong, bright and clean within the singer's normal range.

Very few boys in the Vienna Boys Choir would want to become castrati (I would think, though a position on that choir is an extreme achievement, so?), but that choir might have boys like Tim that want to stay boys because of their discomfort in the changes wrought on by puberty, and their depth of involvement in music, similar to Tim's. Vienna to Holland is not a long trip.

As i have said many times before, a BtE remain the boy forever, the change wrought by puberty never occur, simply nothing changes.

They remain as they are when blockers are started or castration (accidental of medical) is performed. Typically, they appears to be age 12 or so, but with the development of longer limbs. Tim's still appears to be 14 or 15, but his limbs are a bit longer now. Without castration, he would have been about 5'7, with the longer period for limb growth, he will be around 5'11.

In his eyes, nothing about puberty was worth the changes. For him, remaining prepubescent was not ever a "choice" and an appropriate course of action was castration. From all he told me, since he first started discussing castration, was his seriousness about it, and his present comfort level with his "choice." It was not a choice, but the answer waiting for him to find the right question.

What is crucial here is that boy be given the knowledge about puberty, and with that the option of going on blockers, until they are in a better position to insure that the decision is the correct one. The approach I like best is that starting at age 8, during annual, or semi-annual physical exam, the boy be given the necessary information to start him thinking about his on-coming physical development. Few boy would see any need to delay puberty.

This is alsothe time when he should start to watch for things that could indicate possible issues in his soon-to-be developing genitals. How many teenagers developed testicular cancer because they were never told how to check their genital health and so they never looked for lumps. I was never told any of this (no, I remained healthy, but still...). These visits are also the perfect time to insure that the boy is ready to start puberty, or that he does not want it yet (if at all).

With the age of the start of puberty getting lower (more growth/hormonal ingredients in animal feed is the suspected cause), the body is getting mature faster than the mind can. Thus it becomes more imperative that BtE's be identified as early as possible.

As I have observed in the past, few boys will express any desire than to become men. The few that do have to be treated in a manner appropriate to meet the child's needs. And that is NOT the approach "Dr." Zucker takes. (I have nothing but contempt for the man and his potentially devastating methods he and the others that use them.)

The three males I have known that this topic is most relevant about: Tim: Very happy as a castrato; Alex: Very happy as a nullo (Amsterdam again); and Jay, still looking at back at age 12 with at least a little regret.

For all of us: The answer await us, it for us to find the question.

-YC

YC,

Please comment on THIS QUESTION (http://www.usrf.org/news/010308-guevedoces.html), then.

Everyone, please take your time exploring this site and the other sites connected to it by links.

The information is very interesting...

All,

YankeeClipper (imported) wrote: Sun May 25, 2008 7:36 pm As the originator of this thread, it is good to see this level of interest in this topic.

At 14 though, Tim was able to convince his mother (single parent) that castration was appropriate. Without the overriding dominance of a father, he was allowed to make the decision on his own (though decision is not really accurate, I guess acknowledgment is more accurate). The one thing he never told me directly was when he came to the realization that he wanted to remain a boy. I think though, it was around 9 or 10 (not atypical). He was very lucky that his testes were never functional, since at 14, it would have have otherwise been too late in all likelyhood. (see previous posts about him for additional information). He was castrated shortly after he turned 15.

In his case, I think music and remaining a boy are indivisible. From my many discussions with him, it was more that just his singing that was part of the reason to remain a boy. He saw other boys mature into (young) men, and he felt that it would be wrong for him to become one. The key indicator here is that he is comfortable as he is, he watched the boys around him mature physically, even before he would have hit puberty, and never wanted to be like them.

Medically, it would not have happened, but that was not discovered until he was castrated, he had vestigle testes. It's why puberty had not started by the time he was 15.

A unique intersection: A boy with a love of music and the desire to remain a boy, a consenting mother, and a lack of functional testes. The lack of either of the latter would have made the first impossible.

I have a very serious concern about "bricks meeting balls," yet I do not know what the best method is that can allow boys to make their concerns known before age 16, when it has become too late to prevent the changes already occurring.

I would like to get Dr. Spack involved in the BtE issue, but I would not know how to approach him about this topic. As with BtG, the danger of self-mutilation for BtE is just as real.

See my initial thread and post #3 in this thread, and you can understand why I started this thread.

There remains a considerable difference in age between "knowing" and being to act on that knowledge, but the child should not be forced to live in the body that was forced on them by parents and doctors because they were too young to have any input into the discussion (if there even is any).

My 10-million question: how can boys really get their needs across?

It will take a lot of education of doctors, like Dr. Spack. to understand that there is, in fact, a third group, BtE, who's needs must be addressed in an appropriate manner, without the need for a trip to Holland.

The last time I chatted with Tim, his voice was up to high E, and he slowly lowering the bottom end of his range. He does not regret, at all, the choice he made. He was on in the last month or so, but I was not on at the same time.

As i have said many times before, a BtE remain the boy forever, the change wrought by puberty never occur, simply nothing changes.

They remain as they are when blockers are started or castration (accidental of medical) is performed. Typically, they appears to be age 12 or so, but with the development of longer limbs. Tim's still appears to be 14 or 15, but his limbs are a bit longer now. Without castration, he would have been about 5'7, with the longer period for limb growth, he will be around 5'11.

In his eyes, nothing about puberty was worth the changes. For him, remaining prepubescent was not ever a "choice" and an appropriate course of action was castration. From all he told me, since he first started discussing castration, was his seriousness about it, and his present comfort level with his "choice." It was not a choice, but the answer waiting for him to find the right question.

The three males I have known that this topic is most relevant about: Tim: Very happy as a castrato; Alex: Very happy as a nullo (Amsterdam again); and Jay, still looking at back at age 12 with at least a little regret.

For all of us: The answer await us, it for us to find the question.

-YC

Hello again!

Have you ever met the three guys live and seen how the world around them react when for instance they come into a petrol-station to pay for the fill-up and talk in a soprano-voice on a spot where you should be adult to do things. Another situation I would be interested to see/hear about is if an eunuch with soprano-voice calls somewhere where it will be a business-relation where the seller being called up must be sure he/she sells to a grown up as youngsters aren´t allowed to handle money without parents signing for them.

Greetings

John

YC,

A-1 (imported) wrote: Sun May 25, 2008 8:30 pm Please comment on THIS QUESTION (http://www.usrf.org/news/010308-guevedoces.html), then.

Everyone, please take your time exploring this site and the other sites connected to it by links.

The information is very interesting...

Since it is located in a very small section of that country, with no apparent instances elsewhere, it appears that it is indeed, an endocrine abnormality localized to that area. The critical causal element in these cases appears to be a lack of 5-alpha Reductase, normally present during gestation, and remains present during a male's life cycle, that causes the physical identity of the his body.

"Specific inhibition of 5-alpha Reductase is the mechanism of action of the prostate drug, finasteride (Proscar), which in adults, shrinks the prostate without affecting the male phenotype."

There is no discussion in the article cited above about the fertility of those born with this condition. Keep in mind that physical maturation as male does not, in itself, indicate the fertility of the adult.

Also, as noted in the article, even though puberty occurs, it is truncated, with limited development of male characteristics. On that basis, sterility is likely, since the testes did not develop prior to the onset of puberty. It would seem that 5-alpha Reductase is only present that one period, which was not discussed at all in this article.

Keep in mind that the researchers involved with this project are United States trained specialists, with normal biases (as would be expected), in a part of a country that has different customs than those common in the United States. That the children in this study act as girls, before puberty, and males after, cannot be determines strictly be US standards.

There is no comment is this article as to the source of the 5-alpha Reductase, does it develop during childhood, instead of gestation, or is it introduced into the child prior to puberty; I expect the former. This would indicate a genetic defect localized to that area, by causes unknown.

I consider that the article that you reference is much too limited in information present to make any determination within the scope of this discussion to cover the core subject of this discussion.

I would, however, ask that others active in this discussion pursue this topic and provide any other information that parallels this type of childhood development.

-YC

John (imported) wrote: Mon May 26, 2008 7:45 am Hello again!

Have you ever met the three guys live and seen how the world around them react when for instance they come into a petrol-station to pay for the fill-up and talk in a soprano-voice on a spot where you should be adult to do things. Another situation I would be interested to see/hear about is if an eunuch with soprano-voice calls somewhere where it will be a business-relation where the seller being called up must be sure he/she sells to a grown up as youngsters aren´t allowed to handle money without parents signing for them.

Greetings

John

See: (Natural) Male Soprano (Michael Maniaci)

JesusA (imported) wrote: Sun Jun 12, 2005 7:33 pm (http://www.eunuch.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=

13257)

I would think that this would not be any more of an issue for Tim and Alex than it is for Michael. In the age of online transactions and credit/debit cards, there is probably little reason for that to be an issue. The are numerous endocrinological eunuchs that would have similar issues, if there are any issues.

Jay passed through normal puberty, so this is not an issue for him.

Keep in mind that the perceived age of a person, at least in public is based more than the apparent physical age. Some youth appear to be 15 when they are 18 and 18 when they are 15. the Choice of clothing can impact the appearance of the age of the individual, though for Tim and Alex, both appearing to be be under 15 (Tim is 18 now [Dec. 11, 1989], Alex is above 21). Neither have ever expressed any issue of this nature to me. I think this particular issue is of little concern to either of them.

Michael does have the advantage in that he developed in all ways except the change associated with his voice. I would expect the Michael was already a solid (i.e. well into training, practicing, singing) soprano when puberty hit, and he was able to continue singing without interruption. It strikes me as unlikely that he would suddenly take to singing because his voice remained in the soprano range.

Comments from others?

-YC

During the discussion throughout this thread, the understanding has been that when one desires to become a eunuch, removal of the testes is required to achieve complete, permanent, and non-reversible, physical castration is required.

See Castration Primer

JesusA (imported) wrote: Sun Jun 12, 2005 7:33 pm (http://www.eunuch.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=

10168):

How Do Male Hormones Work?

The primary male sex hormone is testosterone. Testosterone, a steroid, is made by the interstitial, or Leydig, cells of the testes. Production and secretion of testosterone increases sharply at puberty and causes the development of the secondary sexual characteristics (e.g., beard, genital enlargement) of men. Testosterone is also essential for the production of sperm.

Production of testosterone is controlled by the release of luteinizing hormone (LH) from the anterior lobe of the pituitary gland, which is in turn controlled by the release of GnRH (Gonadotropin Releasing Hormone) from the hypothalamus. LH is also called interstitial cell stimulating hormone (ICSH). Thus:

Hypothalamus --> GnRH --> Pituitary --> LH --> Testes --> Testosterone

The level of testosterone is under negative feedback, that is, a rising level of testosterone suppresses the release of GnRH from the hypothalamus.

One drug, a vaccine, Norelin, would appear to be an excellent course of action for a boy that can convince his parents and doctors to allow androgen blockers until he he is 16 or 18 (Dr. Spack allows transitioning at 16, so 16 would be appropriate in this type of case).

See the section in the Primer on Norelin.

This is an experimental drug that has not been released to market. It is a vaccine that serves as a GnRH inhibitor, thus blocking testosterone production.

With no GnRH, there is no luteinizing hormone produced, thus the testes no longer function. It is common that when the testes fail, they shrink and are often absorbed by the body. All other conditions expected in a castrated male will occur. For a physical boy (on blockers if needed, regardless of age), he would remain as he would have been just prior to puberty at the time he is vaccinated. (See the negative feedback cycle described above.)

Thus Norelin creates anti-bodies that behave in a similar manner as other anti-bodies, but the anti-bodies created in this case react to GnRH, as if it is a virus. This results in using a normal bodily function to cause the cessation of production of GnRH without the use of either feminizing drugs, (potentionally on an on-going basis) or permanent anti-androgen use. With Norelin the creation of GnRH ceases, and permanent natural castration occurs.

Since it is a vaccine, a single dose is required for lifetime effect. For a "boy" like Tim, this would have been a perfect course of action. He had little interest in either keeping or losing his testes or scrotum (the testes and scrotum were removed). What he was seeking was to prevent puberty, this was achieved by traditional medical castration.

The only reservations I have about Norelin are:

1.) Replicas of unknown origin, quality, and safety. Of all of these, this is the one I consider most important.

2.) Availability: will this become available to boys and men other than those who need for clearly obvious medical reasons (cancer, for example). Restrictions by US Federal law?

3.) Cost until the patent expires.

4.) Inappropriate use: how is access to Norelin kept out of hands of boys who are too young, before puberty, to be acting on the need to be castrated without any supervision, though given any boy other than those who are in need of castration, as has already been much discussed, I think this is of little, if any, real concern. (Dr. Spack, please help.)

-YC

Text Deleted

I am indebted to Yankee Clipper for starting this thread. The various contributions confirm the assumptions I made when beginning the "Simon" series of stories some time ago.

If there is indeed a right time to castrate boys, it is before puberty. At age (say) 11 - 12, the skin of a boy's scrotum is fine and delicate, the spermatic cords have not thickened, and there are fewer, and smaller, blood vessels. So whether the procedure involves taking the testicles right out, or destroying them painlessly by injection, it is a less serious matter, surgically, than when puberty has already kicked in.

One of the disputed after-effects concerns erections. There is a great deal of anecdotal material (the tale of the First Eunuch and many others) suggesting that sexual potency is not affected. However, the contributions in this thread all point to the fact that, after castration, a boy's facility for "schoolboy erections" - those 2- or 3-inch efforts that little girls find so amusing at bath-time) is lost. This makes sense. What would have been the point of castrating page-boys in pre-revolutionary France (some say the practice still goes on) if they could still get erections afterwards and "do it"?

Some of the contributors say that not only are the boys unable to masturbate, but lose all desire to do so. Again there is anecdotal material on the other side. Shakespeare's Mardian in "Antony and Cleopatra" admits to very strong sexual longings, though he can do nothing, and the young man in Voltaire's Candide, castrated in Naples as a child, makes a similar admission. It would be interesting to explore this further.

C van D