While 2 cases are hardly a study, I can offer up what I've seen while being on diaper duty for the 2'grand'sons. And that wasn't too long ago. Both are 2000's births.Both are under 10 now. Both of their sets of parents probably didn't know any better, and just went along with the routine infant circ protocol. I advised against it. I was ignored. From what I've seen,it looks as if the boys had a procedure of: cover the glans, let things relax back to normal, and just slice a bit behind the corona.This would be what my Jewish Auntie (married into the family,converted) would call a “token” circ. I couldn't tell you where the scars are. It's not something you look for when cleaning out a thermonuclear diaper, or doing damage control after a bout of explosive diarrhea! But it looks to me as if not much was taken off.

The last time I saw the older boy'spenis was this past autumn, as we were outside at his house. It's alarge place, and he was showing me the temporary little creek wherethe runoff from the fields on the slope comes through the yard. Whenyou gotta go, you gotta go, so he just pulls it out and goes. I toldhim it's more fun outside to aim it at a hole in the ground, andafter a second of surprise, I politely looked away. I asked hisfather about this behavior, and he reminded me that they do gohunting a great deal, and there's no porta-potties in the woods.That, and our sandlot town baseball league usually doesn't have the“everybody's welcome” restroom working – so the boys all usethe big trees behind the concession stand.

Of course, I'd rather have that attitude, and not the “Oh my God, someone saw me!” and freak out attitude.

Not to hijack, but Paolo please dont let your grand kids, or anyone for that matter, play in that run off!!!!!!! Its a chemical soup of endocrine disrupting carcinogenic crap courtesy of Monsanto!

gay2girl (imported) wrote: Tue Feb 20, 2018 9:40 am Why do you say to the 1990s, as most boys still are circumcised at birth? I was born in 1999 and about all the boys I knew growing up had it done. I think the "round up" still goes on!

In Estonia where I live most boys are not circumcized.

I see Iceland are considering making it illegal, with a 6 year prison term for anyone mutilating a childs genitalia.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-43111800

MikeGrant (imported) wrote: Thu Feb 22, 2018 12:23 pm I see Iceland are considering making it illegal, with a 6 year prison term for anyone mutilating a childs genitalia.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-43111800

Germany banned circumcision, now Iceland wants to and England might follow. I hope that Canada and USA will follow too. https://icelandmonitor.mbl.is/news/poli ... ision_for_ b/

paring (imported) wrote: Fri Feb 23, 2018 4:51 am https://icelandmonitor.mbl.is/news/

news/2018/02/20/circumcision_of_boys_already_punishable_in_iceland/

Brynjar Níelsson, high court lawyer and MP for the Independence Party points out on his Facebook page today that circumcision of boys is already punishable by law in Iceland. This comes in wake of the religious stir caused by a bill put forward by MP Silja Dögg Gunnarsdóttir of the Progressive Party recently to ban circumcision of boys.

Muslim, Jewish and even the Catholic church have condemned the bill.

The bill was featured on the BBC yesterday.

Níelsson spoke to Mbl.is and says he's not one for putting bans on everything. "There have been good arguments both for and against the bill," he says. However, he says, in Icelandic law calls for bodily harm to be punishable and that he does not think circumcision is excluded. He tells mbl.is that he's not taking a stance on the matter but just pointing this out.

The MP says to mbl.is that although circumcision of boys is not specifically mentioned in Iceland's criminal law, circumcision of girls and women is defined as an assault which means the act of circumcision is considered an assault according to law.

Níelsson takes as an example a twelve years old boy circumcised at the insistence of his parents who would then bring charges against them. He says in his opinion it would be very difficult for the courts not to recognise that a crime had been committed.

In Icelandic law, female circumcision is banned according to article 218a.

paring (imported) wrote: Fri Feb 23, 2018 4:51 am https://icelandmonitor.mbl.is/news/poli ... ision_for_ b/

Over 400 Icelandic doctors have signed a declaration of support for the bill against the circumcision of boys in Iceland except for particular medical reason. They believe that circumcision made without such reason go against the Declaration of Geneva made by doctors.

"All operations, however technically simple in execution, have possible side effects which should weigh against their possible benefits. Medical reasons for circumcision exist, but they are very few. We believe that without such reasons that the circumcision of infant boys goes against the Declaration of Geneva and against the Helsinki declaration on a person's right to decide themselves and an informed agreement."

They point to the findings of an American study made by a pediatrician's association in 2013 where it states that the circumcision of healthy male infants in Western society has no health benefits or preventive benefit, but causes pain and can lead to serious, even prolonged side effects and goes against the UN children's rights agreement. Furthermore, they say, it goes against the Hippocratic Oath, “Primum non nocere” - "first, do no harm."

MikeGrant (imported) wrote: Tue Feb 20, 2018 7:07 pm Not to hijack, but Paolo please dont let your grand kids, or anyone for that matter, play in that run off!!!!!!! Its a chemical soup of endocrine disrupting carcinogenic crap courtesy of Monsanto!

Thanks. I know.

No one listens to me, though. I told them not to circumcise the two boys to begin with, but oh no...

This won't be popular but....After I'd graduated from Med School and before I completed my internship in surgery, I did my military service in the British South African Police as a Bush Surgeon. Easily 80% of the male children I saw in the bush had very serious problems with their penis caused by a lack of circumcision. In that part of the world, every man is very aware of all manner of creepies and crawlies, some quite small, that are permanently on the lookout for a warm, moist place to set up residence. What could be better than under the extended foreskin of a penis? This applies to ALL men both city and country-I routinely wore a heavy duty condom just to prevent squatters from making me their home. It's easy to say, well, yes, but that's Africa. The bulk of the United States, while hardly living in homes made from dried dung and drinking water that would kill our over protected population, still live in somewhat primitive areas which can and does include suburbia in certain places. I am pro circumcision, and pro choice, because I believe there are diseases and germs that start there and migrate into other parts of the body. Why this has become such a hot button issue in the past decade or so eludes me but it has. We seem to have gone through a modified "Green" period during which women found ways to give birth that would have shocked my good Zulu mothers. Still, the health issue is a real one and to duck it saying that "natural" is better is unfortunate. Let us remember that in many of the Orthodox Christian Churches, the major winter celebration is remembering the Circumcision of Jesus.

Then there's this. I have difficulty trying to persuade an eighteen year old to drop by his friendly neighbourhood urologist and have his penis whittled on. As they say in Honolulu, "Nevah Hoppen". Adult males are only less sensitive on the topic indeed they'll say, with pride, they've had a vasectomy before revealing they went in for a circumcision.

As to hospitals charging outrageous sums to perform a very simple procedure, that is wrong. Some parent coherent enough to understand should have to sign off on this and the charge? Fifty bucks, it is a medical procedure and they will charge for it. One way to stop them is to tell your insurance carrier that you would appreciate them telling the hospital or birthing centre or wherever that they will not pay for a circumcision. That out to make them more pensive about what to do and when to do it. And do not get me started on natural childbirth at home.....want to up the odds of your child dying in the first few days of life, that's one way to see that it might happen....

I am pro circumcision,

You mention the health benefits of circumcision. But, your example of African tribes with no modern hygiene falls far short of comparing apples to apples.

So, let's compare apples to apples:

Parents to Doctor: "He's perfect, nothing wrong with him. Just one thing, doctor. His brother, his father, his three uncles, both his grandfathers and two of his great uncles all had emergency appendectomies before the age of 15. Can you take out his appendix now. Just to avoid an emergency in the future."

Doctor: "But, there is nothing wrong with his appendix now. It's perfectly healthy and I can't surgically remove a healthy part of your baby, sorry"

Parents: "Oh, well, that makes sense. But, can you circumcise him?"

Doctor: "Of course, someone will be in to collect him shortly and he'll be back in your room before you know it".

Now, see the apples to apples?

1 in 10 american men have their appendix out (if they don't die from it - as I almost did) Most before the age of 12 (mine was age 10 three days after it burst).

1 in 300,000 men in Europe require a medical circumcision in adulthood.

Between foreskins and the appendix, we'd save a great many more lives with appendectomies post natal.

Continuing apples to apples

470 men die every year in the United States from Breast Cancer. Yes, Breast Cancer can affect men and kill them. That's 470 men after they go through mastectomies, chemo and radiation. Which is far less than the number of men in Europe (a mostly uncircumcised population) who die from penile cancer.

Again, if we are attempting to save lives, shouldn't we remove baby boys breast buds at birth?

Logic evades, medicine fails and parents fall trap to bad information when it comes to circumcision.

Yep, here we go again. I think this about the 15th time in 20 years...