I have to wonder if there is a cultural element which affects the matter of children and adolescents wanting to have the testes removed. According to what I have read, there are a number of cultures (e.g. some in Polynesia) in which it is socially recognized, that there are a number of possible sexual orientations. In these cultures, I would presume that, as a child grows up, he learns at a relatively early age, that there is a spectrum of orientations , any of which might be appropriate to him. And perhaps this would make it less likely that the boy would want to have his testes and/or phallus excised, since he could see how, while retaining the testes, he could have an identity that would allow him to interact with others according to his own orientation. To my knowledge, there is no substantial history of people wanting to, or having, their sex organs removed in childhood or youth, in cultures where a variety of orientations is acknowledged (though, admittedly, I haven't studied this sort of thing.) I guess this is done to some extent in Thailand, but my impression is that it is a relatively recent development.

The culture one lives in, typically is directed toward inculcating certain ideas into people's heads, right from the beginning of life, and it seems to me that this could cause an individual to have a kind of polar view of sex that might seem natural to him (or, or course, to her) even though it is actually something learned. The way that society teaches us things, from infancy onward, is typically insistent and unyielding. You aren't allowed to ask questions, and the whole notion that questions might be raised about certain things, isn't acknowledged.

And, in that vein, it might be argued that someone who is, say, younger than sixteen or so, might be as mature in his attitudes as an adult; but he simply might be unaware of the options that are available to him. Can you make a sensible decision, if you are unaware of a number of aspects of the matter which you're deciding?

I was certainly unaware of a lot of things when I was young. On several occasions, men who probably were gay, made what I now realize were sexual advances toward me--but I didn't understand until years later, the character of what had happened. To the credit of those who made the advances, they didn't persist when they saw I was unresponsive.

My own view on unalterable surgery like removal of the testes is, generally, that it should be done only on rare and unique occasions when the individual is not yet adult. Maybe the fact that puberty produces, when it occurs, some irreversible changes, shouldn't be considered a significant enough negative, to motivate early orchiectomies. As far as I can tell, while few transsexuals and few postpubertal eunuchs show all the typical qualities of women and prepubertal eunuchs, respectively; their characteristics still fall within the "natural" range of those two gender types, and allow them clearly to be of a sexual type other than adult men.

< So I started writing this from the first page... I hope this doesn't turn into a problem... >

Skopztikov (imported) wrote: Mon Jun 13, 2005 3:04 am I would do anything, give anything to be able to turn back the clock and have been castrated prior to puberty.

I find myself saying that almost daily (with some little disclaimers on the off chance some demon will jump out and set the price at a soul o

YankeeClipper (imported) wrote: Mon Jun 13, 2005 5:01 am r killing someone or something messed up like that... ).

Unlike Skoptzikov, I had no pr

oblem being a boy; it is that I wanted to stay just that.

Thank you thank you thank you for keeping this thread around...

... I did my first research paper in ninth grade on the topic of reversing the aging process. Since I sucked at doing research at the time, it wound up being more on the "let's not get old" side, and in order to not ignore my sources I wound up commenting on the "improved sex drive" provided by all of the anti-aging techniques I read about. But as you can probably guess, my intention when starting the project was far from "improved sex drive". Quite the opposite, in fact... and actually, I finally stumbled across information on substances that would reverse early puberty... ... but I never really had the confidence to say anything, and by then it was probably too late (I can still wear clothes from before that time...).

It all started earlier, though only by enough to have saved me had I been... ... ... more informed? Around the time I turned twelve, I quite suddenly realized how I'd changed as a person throughout my life (particularly in school), and I knew I wasn't who I wanted to be... and that puberty would be more than a stumblingblock to correcting that (both physically and mentally...).

Between the EA and my own reflections and researching of conditions and all of that fun stuff, I'm certain that, if I could somehow wake up and find myself at a point prior to 2000, the second thing I would do would be to plot the destruction of my testicles. (the first would depend on what mood I wake up in, but either way it'd probably be some dramatic reaction... granted, getting my vision back to the way it was at that time wouldn't hurt, either... but if I had to choose, I'd go with prepubescence... at least then I'd feel like doing something about it...).

I'm sure now that "man" is more than just a full-grown male... it's a state of being, one where I don't want to be, and can't say that I am... but I am most definitely male. At the risk of killing anonymity... I've got a personal text under my non-existent avatar on another forum that says: "I am neither god nor man... I am a [ink smudge]". (I think it was 2003 when I put that up?). The rest of my ramblings should make it very clear what part I left out of that sentence (and the response when I asked if I should reveal it was that to do so would take away the mysteriousness... which somehow I didn't notice. Hehehehe...).

I would never have seen this thread if i

Paolo wrote: Mon Jun 13, 2005 1:27 pm t hadn't been revived... even though it's too late (and was when the thread was started) for me... it still means a lot.

My own thoughts on the manner remain pretty much unchanged from the original discourse that we had long ago, however. While I do not doubt that there are boys out there who could definitely benefit in myriad ways from DELAYING puberty via chemical means supervised by professionals in the medical field, I still do not believe that there are boys out there who are capable of understandin

g the life-altering action of castration before or AT puberty. Holding it off is one thing – surgery is quite another.

This, though, is the truth...

In seventh grade I heard about a rapist who was castrated by vigilantes. Subsequently, a random dream involved a couple people I know mistaking me for someone else and doing the same to me... a relatively minor point in the dream over all, without any apparent sexual relevance, or even that much to be annoyed about... and I had absolutely no idea at the time what it would have meant other than sterility.

Actually, I had no idea castration would have done what I wanted until my post-research paper research, as mentioned above...

Castration, being irreversable and all, should require a very informed decision... one that most people who would benefit from it earlier wouldn't have had at the time...

... Though, if GNRH(Ant?)agonists do what the stuff I haven't read in five years suggested... ... I'd suggest the option to chemically delay puberty until one is more capable of choosing something more permanent.

(Hmm, ok, so I guess my voice is part of this... heck, I've taken several recordings of myself from the nineties and tried making a text to speech engine out of it... Put two more cassettes on my computer today...)

(... And I hate, hate, hate, absolutely hate being over five feet tall. I think my eye got used to seeing things from a certain height... because in sixth grade (Hmm, interesting choice of time) I was told I had my head down too much... and even though I can't see half as well as I could then, I still find my self looking even farther down to keep the same area in my line of not-really-sight (no

YankeeClipper (imported) wrote: Tue Apr 22, 2008 9:53 pm t thinking about it; it's just natural?)... and I'm pretty sure that if I were a foot or so shorter, I'd have less broken teeth... and I'm rambling, sorry...).

It is long past time to restart this thread. This topic will remain

important and vital for the foreseeable future. I hope this thread does not wither away as quickly as it had before, but, if it does, I'll just restart it again

Thank you a million times over... This may very well be the highlight of the past two years for me (I think the only stretch of not-hell I've had since puberty was 2003, simply because I could still focus on writing then... I can bearly focus on anything but stream-of-consciousness rambling anymore (ala this p

YankeeClipper (imported) wrote: Tue Apr 22, 2008 9:53 pm ost... maybe my requests for low testosterone were answered only with regards to my mind... if it didn't ruin my already practically over life, it'd be funny...).

One other observation: of all the the boys that I know that either wanted castration (Jay and myself) or were castrated, all of us are gay, and self-identified

at an early age, age 6 for myself, all of the other before they were 10. I don't kno

w what the overall corollation is, but I'd very interested in how many of those seeking castration during childhood were self-identified a

YankeeClipper (imported) wrote: Thu Apr 24, 2008 9:16 pm s gay at an early age.

I contend that I am not gay. I could imagine someone reading some things of mine and wondering... I'v

e convinced myself I'm asexual... (though I think I still have serious issues here... homosexuality wouldn't be one... Hmm... I think I'm extremely confused.).

(I think though that Holland might have found the right age, 14, but without blockers, that can be maddeningly too late.)

I started my research at fourteen... just last week I was wearing a shirt I got before that research. Fourteen... way too late. (Though I didn't give up on trying to find out more until sixteen... at that point it was apparent that I had transformed completely. ).

My biggest problem, though? Secrecy, for sure. I've only ever managed to get myself to say how I felt on the matter twice--once in seventh grade (... ironically enough the year I was in choir...), as more of an offhand comment in a "your greatest desire" discussion in the cafeteria... which was promptly laughed off and forgotten. The other was to someone who manages to understand me better than most everyone else in the world (which isn't saying much ... ) and avidly disagrees with how I treat the subject (granted, my treatment of the subject is probably obsessive... but it is my whole life I'm talking about...). My parents? Despite the fact that I know full well that they're pretty accepting and such... I've always shi

A-1 (imported) wrote: Tue Apr 29, 2008 9:04 pm ed away even when I tried setting up an opportunity to talk about it. I

f anything, I've managed to make the possibility of addressing the issue more disasterous by how I react whenever someone says something about "You're an ad

A-1 (imported) wrote: Tue Apr 29, 2008 9:04 pm ult" or something similar... Responsibility is good and all, but the term has more of an identity meaning for me...).

I mean, these are children. They are not capable of adult decisions.

Probably a stupid point for me to make, but... a rare few migh

t be. (though that doesn't mean we should let those that aren't screw themselves over... :O ).

Are you admitting that you should have been allowed to change as a child, to make an ADULT decision regarding your gender before you knew what you wanted

for sure? Oh, sure, you know now, but really, did you then? Be honest and try to remember...

Considering that since that day it's been one of the biggest things in my mind with only a few changes (Of the confirming type that I would be more than glad to have not gone through)...

... Then again, I question the adult-ness of my current decisions...

(No, actually, I think I should also po

A-1 (imported) wrote: Tue Apr 29, 2008 9:04 pm int out that at some point in there, I think when I was thirteen, I asked God to kill me if I changed my mind on this issue. :O ... Rash (and childish?), definitely, but I'm glad I said it then, because I don't think I'd say such a thing now despite feeling the same way... and something about that is important somehow... ... ... ... ... ... )

This is referred to as "Identity Fixation" in all of the adolesent Psychology textbooks, and no matter how a

n individual is supposedly "destined" to turn

out, we just DO NOT have the scientific expertise to foretell their future and allow them to fixate themselves with no other option than the decision that

they make as children. If a child has IDENTITY FIXATION,

A-1 (imported) wrote: Tue Apr 29, 2008 9:04 pm they become a very unhappy adult? But, then, is this what YOU are dealing with now?

Well, since I like to stick to my vows regardless of when I made them...

*points up*.

But I haven't seen the term "identity fixation" before. I think we finally found the condition that fits me... Thanks! Wait... ..... Yeah, thanks! *goes to research*

There is plenty of time to 'change' your sex after you are 18.

Did anybody here KNOW for sure what they wanted at 18? If so, why did you not start then?

Too late. (That, and I am sorely lacking in independence... )

Plix... I can't pick something to quote from post 61 without quoting the whole thing, but I feel obligated to point at you and declare you super freaking awesome. (I tried writing a rant on a similar topic with identity-ness thrown in ... a year or two ago? and it wound up way long... you covered a large chunk of it in a really short post, and better!).

... And now we're considering how to affect the DSMV... I feel like I'm getting in the way, now...

Hello!

Would have been interesting to know if a male to female TS would get a better result if she was allowed to get rid of the testes before getting an adult.

Greetings

John

Hello,

One thought is that first, boys of 15 now are way more sure of what they want than boys at 15 when I was that age. Also once they have been subjected to all this information it seems they can make a decision.

If it means a career in singing that they want, why deprive them of that?

Many people are erotic, and enjoy very different things. I don't think we can use the regular society criteria for making most of our decisions. At a very young age, I realized I got tremendous rushes and pleasure from "different" things.

Aldoverico

Putting aside the medical and projected sexual ramifications, the base issue here, or so it seems to me, is simply do we as adults trust someone that young to make what me might call an "informed" decision on an issue that will impact the rest of their life? And, yes, some young people are more mature than others and some have a clearer grasp of what they want and do not want. Castrated or not, they do not remain children or boys. Maturation is a process that deals as much with a person's ability to accept and implement information as it does whether they are possessed of testes. From my own experience I would say that I was certainly capable of making that far reaching a decision. (I once asked Douglas Mac Arthur if he felt one could compare his retreat from the Philippines with Napoleon's abandoning his troops in Moscow. For an eight year old, that strikes me as an adult question and suggests I was at least capable of considering the issue.) The choir boy model is interesting and, to some very viable. But if one were to candidly survey the Vienna Boy's Choir I suspect you'd not find many who would want castration. At some point in their growth they would eventually look more like the Vienna Men's Choir specializing in Counter-tenor singing.

This is a discussion that is very much of this century. Three hundred years ago castrati were created without their permission but frequently their family's agreed as it meant their son would have a better education, a better life and receive benefits-learning to read and write for example-virtually unavailable to the public. A successful Castrati was a fixture of society, admired for their talent, their education and, not infrequently, their erudition. But independently, would they have chose that path? We cannot know. Today we can know. The problem that faces us as adults is how to know if a child even understands that this is a potentially available option though it may be something that they, in an unformed thought, have considered. Many boys do not really understand the relationship between their formative testicles and their future as fully fledged males. It can, of course, be explained to them but after that you need a truly perceptive child to comprehend what they've been told and then relate that as a positive to themselves. Beyond that it's up to the child to persuade the adult that this is something they want and have reached it with no assistance from others save for basic information. That's a great deal and yet that is, I believe, the path things must take. Certainly if they are involved in things where physical changes they will undergo drive what they do this may be easier to understand. The Choir Boy Model again. But if they are not they must have access to a free and open forum that is at once neutral and supportive of their thoughts. Apart from those who from an early age know that they are of the wrong gender, the larger group is, like myself, comprised of men who wish to stay genetically male without any feminine traits but also desire a non-specific gender assignment. To us castration is not only useful but an imperative. Sadly we don't discover this until we are already in the confusing scheme of what others think about what is often regarded with revulsion.

Few Eunuchs can easily as part of general conversation reveal that fact about themselves and have it an accepted norm. As I approach my own orchietomy I am aware that while I'm confident in what I'm about, I've inadvertently committed myself to hours of trying to calmly explain to others something they simply do not wish to understand. So it is with the wise child who sees castration as something desirable to them. Their peers are going to make their lives hell and most adults are going to be aghast. Yet, as the argument goes, this is the optimal time for the operation to be done. At my age it's an afterthought which may bring consolation to me but also brings medical issues that will have to be faced for the rest of my life. I envy the boy who knows that his life is already different and to be castrated to achieve whatever level of sexuality-or lack of it-he wishes is the correct thing to do.

And it's back to the prime question: Do we trust a child, even one of thirteen or fourteen, with this decision and then assist them in going forward to their goal? Certainly it's on a very individual basis but, prior to that, there needs to be sufficient numbers of adults who will accept the child as the mature and then allow them the freedom to be what they want. I do no know and I hope I'm never confronted by a child who wants what I want. And that's probably hypocrisy on my part but it's a fraught situation and as passionately as I want that child to have that of which they are sure I equally do not want to permit something that will have consequences that will not be what it is they thought they wanted.

Hi, I have edited this post to tell everyone that I am leaving the eunuch archive. I have done my research and do not believe becoming a eunuch is moral or for me. Thank you everyone for your support

Boots (imported) wrote: Mon Jun 13, 2005 5:15 am I wish that I had been castrated at an early age rather than as an adult. I really wanted to be castrated at 9 and asked and had some school friends try to do so but we did not know how. We tried to squeeze them to destroy them but could not do so. I never wanted my nuts then or later but did not get castrated til late 30's. It has been wonderful but could have been better if done back then.

If "Boots" had had more receptive parents, his wish to be castrated at age 9 might have been fulfilled. I was a tad younger - seven I guess - when my Mom brought me up to speed on that particular subject. It was bath-time and I'd asked about my little balls and what use they were, to be told the following "You could have them taken out by a doctor; afterwards you'd be a cute little boy, your voice would never change, and because your little "doodle" would never grow any more, you could never do the thing that boys do with girls, that starts a baby".

Unless the procedure had been available I don't think she would have told me this.

philip1 (imported) wrote: Tue Jun 14, 2005 12:53 pm for myself castration was on my mind as young as age 5 now that i have become a eunuch I have no regrets save one... I regret that when I first wanted to stop being a boy (age 5) I could have been able to achieve that goal. I have never wavered from this desire/need and I am certain that if I were able to have been castrated at 5 I would not regret it. the point is that there are some that were simply born equipped wrong and when they recognize it is when they recognize it. age is inconcequential it is the certanty that matters.

I remember trying to amputate my penis and testicles when I was about 5.

I wasn't allowed to touch sharp knives, and a butter knife just wouldn't do the job.

What an enduring and vital thread. I still have no answers to the issues and questions. I do recall mourning, when I was about twelve, the changes that I knew would happen and that I very much wanted to happen. Change itself often involves a sense of loss, I think. But the issues here are deeper and much more difficult for me to uinderstand than I seem able to understand them.

Considering (imported) wrote: Thu May 22, 2008 2:12 pm Putting aside the medical and projected sexual ramifications, the base issue here, or so it seems to me, is simply do we as adults trust someone that young to make what me might call an "informed" decision on an issue that will impact the rest of their life? And, yes, some young people are more mature than others and some have a clearer grasp of what they want and do not want. Castrated or not, they do not remain children or boys. Maturation is a process that deals as much with a person's ability to accept and implement information as it does whether they are possessed of testes. From my own experience I would say that I was certainly capable of making that far reaching a decision. (I once asked Douglas Mac Arthur if he felt one could compare his retreat from the Philippines with Napoleon's abandoning his troops in Moscow. For an eight year old, that strikes me as an adult question and suggests I was at least capable of considering the issue.) The choir boy model is interesting and, to some very viable. But if one were to candidly survey the Vienna Boy's Choir I suspect you'd not find many who would want castration. At some point in their growth they would eventually look more like the Vienna Men's Choir specializing in Counter-tenor singing.

This is a discussion that is very much of this century. Three hundred years ago castrati were created without their permission but frequently their family's agreed as it meant their son would have a better education, a better life and receive benefits-learning to read and write for example-virtually unavailable to the public. A successful Castrati was a fixture of society, admired for their talent, their education and, not infrequently, their erudition. But independently, would they have chose that path? We cannot know. Today we can know. The problem that faces us as adults is how to know if a child even understands that this is a potentially available option though it may be something that they, in an unformed thought, have considered. Many boys do not really understand the relationship between their formative testicles and their future as fully fledged males. It can, of course, be explained to them but after that you need a truly perceptive child to comprehend what they've been told and then relate that as a positive to themselves. Beyond that it's up to the child to persuade the adult that this is something they want and have reached it with no assistance from others save for basic information. That's a great deal and yet that is, I believe, the path things must take. Certainly if they are involved in things where physical changes they will undergo drive what they do this may be easier to understand. The Choir Boy Model again. But if they are not they must have access to a free and open forum that is at once neutral and supportive of their thoughts. Apart from those who from an early age know that they are of the wrong gender, the larger group is, like myself, comprised of men who wish to stay genetically male without any feminine traits but also desire a non-specific gender assignment. To us castration is not only useful but an imperative. Sadly we don't discover this until we are already in the confusing scheme of what others think about what is often regarded with revulsion.

Few Eunuchs can easily as part of general conversation reveal that fact about themselves and have it an accepted norm. As I approach my own orchietomy I am aware that while I'm confident in what I'm about, I've inadvertently committed myself to hours of trying to calmly explain to others something they simply do not wish to understand. So it is with the wise child who sees castration as something desirable to them. Their peers are going to make their lives hell and most adults are going to be aghast. Yet, as the argument goes, this is the optimal time for the operation to be done. At my age it's an afterthought which may bring consolation to me but also brings medical issues that will have to be faced for the rest of my life. I envy the boy who knows that his life is already different and to be castrated to achieve whatever level of sexuality-or lack of it-he wishes is the correct thing to do.

And it's back to the prime question: Do we trust a child, even one of thirteen or fourteen, with this decision and then assist them in going forward to their goal? Certainly it's on a very individual basis but, prior to that, there needs to be sufficient numbers of adults who will accept the child as the mature and then allow them the freedom to be what they want. I do no know and I hope I'm never confronted by a child who wants what I want. And that's probably hypocrisy on my part but it's a fraught situation and as passionately as I want that child to have that of which they are sure I equally do not want to permit something that will have consequences that will not be what it is they thought they wanted.

Well said. Thank you.