Wolf-Pup (imported) wrote: Mon Jul 18, 2011 10:47 pm That's an interesting idea A-1. Wouldn't that require someone in whatever host country to be able to physically access the server where the stories are hosted?

No, the servers can be anywhere in the world. The servers to my site were in Texas, but they sold the company, and I don't know where they are now. I once ran a site off servers located in Germany. We are a globally connected world. As an administrator, you likely never see the hardware. If it goes down, the host company fixes it.

I was so sorry to learn that the fiction archives were gone and the controversy regarding their being brought back.

I for one really enjoyed the stories. Many hours have been spent reading.

As for thoughts on the subject, a fresh start seems best, or a cutoff such as 6 months on re-posting old stories.

I am also open to paying a users fee, and or, members only password protected.

As for web hosting, that is over my head but there has to be a simple and safe way. I am a member of a few "gay teen" story sites and they seem to have no problems. Please put the technical brains together and save the fiction archives.

But I also believe in the protection of EA and the fine people who run it.

Thanks for allowing my 2 cents worth.

Wolf-Pup (imported) wrote: Mon Jul 18, 2011 10:47 pm That's an interesting idea A-1. Wouldn't that require someone in whatever host country to be able to physically acc

Slammr (imported) wrote: Mon Jul 18, 2011 11:04 pm ess the server where the stories are hosted?

No, the servers can be anywhere in the world. The servers to my site were in Texas, but they sold the company, and I don't know where they are now. I once ran a site off servers located in Germany. We are a globally connected world. As an administrator, you likely never see t

he hardware. If it goes down, the host company fixes it.

The sites could also be accessible by making one site bring up another site. There are all kinds of ways to do it if it is arranged properly.

Designing the hierarchy would be the difficult thing, but a complaint about a one or two stories could result in them being taken down from a site to keep the whole site from coming down. In a short time they are just found somewhere else.

An individual cannot keep their image off of the Internet once it is in circulation. All sorts of celebrity images are out there and they cannot get them all down. These are just stories. How much harder would it be to control them?

This being a place where an ideal which is later wisely rejected may be put forth, perhaps I have such an idea. Some ideas which have been put forth and wisely rejected have subsequently been wisely accepted. Need a "fer instance"? How about Alfred Wegener and his absurd notion of continental drift?

Suppose there is also societal drift, whereby the eternally unchangeable bedrock notions of human society are actually adrift in a way as seemingly implausible as terra firma being a misunderstanding; what if we are really on terra non-firma and are just beginning to recognize this?

It seems to me that one of the members here is a real professional (as, it appears to me, are others in their fields of endeavor) in the field of medical anthropology. While I do have a professional license from the State of Wisconsin, I also have a license from the U.S. federal government, only that license is for my being an amateur, and not a professional. Being federally licensed as an amateur, I suppose I can put forth some amateur notions regarding cultural anthropology and social change.

There is this social notion of dualism. Something is right or it is wrong and never both or neither. I, alas, find that dualism is both right and wrong, and is so in any and every specific context, including the specific context of all possible contexts. Sorry, set theory kind of got to me, years ago.

Being a member of the set of people whose validity is at least partially rejected by the set of people who reject some of aspects of the set of all human biological (genotypic, phenotypic and everything-else-typic) diversities, it is plausibly normal for people who regard themselves as of the normal proper subset of normalcy

to catalog me as abnormal. Okay? That may be normal for "them," but it is abnormal for me.

Is that enough pussy-footing vague inuendo?

I had "figured out" that I did not conform to social expectation standards before I could talk. I was aware that there were things that seemed to not belong where they were, and yet were there, and I set about to make useful sense of this seeming nonsense. After more than seventy years of effort at making sense of nonsense, I wonder if I may have begun to see a hint of useful results.

I have found a way to adapt to my life which I find works, has always worked works, and appears to be capable of always working. I actually have recently found words which are, to me, usefully intelligible. I make no decisions about this for anyone else.

The following belief works for me? Whatever happens, as it happens, is necessary and sufficient.

So, in BIID framing, the right body for me is one which seemed like the wrong body for much of my life, one which could be surgically corrected when correcting it became necessary and sufficient, for it, like everything else, is inextricably necessary and sufficient, moment by moment, or it would not be as it is.

The fiction stories of children represent the real life concerns of real children who kept growing older until writing fiction stories of valid childhood concerns became possible. "Fantasy" may be a pejorative word for the mental process of solving unsolvable personal and social problems. A problem which is unsolvable today and will be unsolvable tomorrow, may become solvable during the day after tomorrow. To reject fantasy and the fiction stories made of fantasy is to condemn humanity to an eternity and beyond of entrapment in unsolvable problems which are solvable only through the public sharing of critically important taboo fantasies.

Were there a binary choice to be made, might such a choice be whether to accept the social stigma and prejudice which both results from and causes the social stigma and prejudice which set off the DNS alarm(s) and the (temporary?) demise of the Fiction Stories, or to accept the personal and social validity of the Fiction Stories, and especially those which are the most seemingly-threatening to the established social order?

Is it possible to capitulate to stigma and prejudice without validating stigma and prejudice? If stigma and prejudice are the core issue, how does one set aside stigma and prejudice without activating them? In my own life and work, I head for the "high ground" of unrelenting autistic (based on diligent self-study and understanding) truthfulness.

The Fiction Stories which seem the most dangerous to "the public" are, I find, those which most profoundly grapple with the greatest of the difficulties of human socialization. The more "the public" deems a story to be inappropriate, the more essential I deem it likely to be regarding repairing the predicament of human destructiveness.

I have been pondering pragmatic ways of framing such Fiction Stories (already written and yet to be written; lost, not lost, and yet to be found) such that their redeeming societal value is put beyond any hint of feasible reproach.

Pondering something pragmatic is not quite the same as having already done it.

It took me a while to "get it." If I am very impatient, I am very likely to be inpatient. I ran that vicious cycle until I found a way out of it, which is quite the opposite of my being "out of it." Rather than being "out of it," I choose simply to be "out."

I welcome companionship.

Might not the ultimate civil rights concern be the civil right to be an authentic, valid person, living a life as true with self as it is true with others?

Cainanite (imported) wrote: Sun Jul 10, 2011 9:02 pm Since the EA message boards had to move, there has been a lot of discussion about the appropriate nature of the Fiction Archive. Many have said that the Fiction Archive was the reason we lost our old home on the web. I have no inside information on the reasons, but I did want to start a serious discussion about whether what is in those stories should be censored.

Most people point to the stories that are tagged "Minor" as the most offensive. I propose there are several categories of story that are equally controversial.

Slavery

Rape

Violence

Prostitution

Incest

There are probably many more.

If we were to eliminate one category of story, why not more? Where does our censorship stop?

[ - ]

Do we allow the do-gooders and busybodies to decide what we should and should not read? What are the risks and how do we protect against them?

[ - ]

I for one, would never have found the EA if it weren't for the Fiction Archive. Writing a story intended for the fiction archive has, and is giving me an outlet for issues and emotions I couldn't otherwise express.

I wrote a story back in 2004 that I submitted to the Fiction Archive. When I read it now, I find it distasteful. I no longer feel the way I did back then. It is not the type of story I would write again. That story did however inspire another couple of authors to further explore the character I wrote. The character I wrote didn't just help me purge my own destructive emotions, but did so for at least two other authors.

Distasteful themed stories aren't meant to be instruction manuals. They are cathartic releases for their authors, and also for their readers. They expose and put to rest the dark natures and fears that reside in our subconscious.

I do not desire any censorship of the Fiction Archive. However, after much soul searching I find I would agree with putting them behind a password and age verification before access.

I open the discussion to all of you. What do you think?

Should the Fiction Archive be censored, password protected, deleted entirely?

Or, none of the above?

I hope the Fiction Archive will stay maybe with a password protected, but certainly not censored or deleted. There are many stories in the FA that don't like, which doen't mean they have to be deleted. I agree with Cainanite about the cathartic value of writing and reading the stories. I also found the Fiction Archive by a link of BMN when I was searcing on the internet on the subject 'castration'. One of the very first stories I read was a warning for a premature castration by following a fantasy. It was after reading that story that I found the Eunuch Archive and it took some time before I became a member of the EA. Reading the stories is a save way to travel in the subconsciousness, this is me and is not me. It is also a help to see how you change. The story you liked is suddenly not so attractive anymore, but also you can see that a story which had frightened you so much don't scare anymore.

When I read a story about castration it is allways me who is the one who get castrated, alone or together with a group of mates, as a boy, a younster or a grown-up. So in a story about the castration of a minor, I'm the minor. Probably because I didn't like the changes during puberty. I don't like stories about incest, rape and extreme violence. Reading those stories shows me what I like and don't like.

While I have these thoughts about and the desire for a castration, it is good to read about it not only in the EA but also in the Fiction Archive.

There is the surface meaning of the Fiction Stories (which will vary dramatically according to the life experiences and interpretations of each reader), and there is a deeper meaning which I observe to be associated with what I have come to understand as virtually ubiquitous socialization trauma (or, at the neurological level, child abuse the existence of which is generally resolutely disavowed by people who have successfully gone through the stages of infant-child-adolescent-"normal adult."

Such people as are "normal adults" tend to believe in humans-as-flawed, shame, guilt, and retribution. I have found all of those belief tendencies to be social/cultural fictions, based on the false notion of "free-will" as the cause of human misconduct. Oh, I also find belief in human misconduct to be a social/cultural fiction.

In my work (as a scientist?), I tend to use methods of Karl Popper, Imre Lakatos, Paul Feyerabend, Thomas Kuhn, and others who have probed philosophy of science diligently and deeply. Most of my work is done as a peer participant-observer, during the ordinary course of my life, without intentional or conscious deception. In devising research models, I tend to favor the "null hypothesis/alternate hypothesis" method of indirect proof through disproof of the null hypothesis and the construction of null and alternate hypotheses as effectively pure dichotomies.

If I write much more detail about what I find I may understand, I might as well put my "birth name" here in 200 point multi-color bold underlined italics... At the MoM, much more may be achievable. While I do understand rather well (or so I surmise) the conventions of anthropology research, I am of a contrasting profession having contrasting research conventions. Perhaps, at the MoM, a viable way to connect what I have learned with the needs and opportunities of the "eunuch community may become more practical.

For now, it may suffice for me to indicate that I find that what is, in not-very-autistic people, sometimes called the Freudian pre-conscious, the brain center of my consciously sentient awareness. Neither needing words for thinking nor being able to think using words allows me to work through some difficult problems vastly faster than many other people, and makes it all-but-impossible for me to work through some other problems word-thinking people solve very rapidly.

So, I choose to celebrate diversity.

I never desired castration, I desired to not commit suicide by neglect of plausible danger.

I am grateful for being sufficiently transgendered as to truly welcome finding my inner life much improved by low testosterone.

The more viewpoints and views expressed here by people who will, and will not, be able to be at the MoM, the better, it seems to me, those at the MoM will be able to sort out how best to proceed.

Something is becoming very clear to me, as of starting this dialog.

I am getting much the same response from the many people who have emailed me, or private messaged me. The Fiction Archive has been a gateway for membership to the forums. A lot of people have found the courage to join the EA community, only because they found solace in the Fiction Archive.

Regardless of how the Fiction Archive returns, I feel this is a point that should be stressed.

A lot of us are afraid of our natures. We've been told so often by the society we live in, that what we want is wrong and is abnormal, that we even view others that are like us as freaks. There was I time I believed that too. Desiring to have my testicles removed is wrong, and only a bad or monstrous person wants that. Because of that flawed thinking, I was afraid to post on the forums. To my terrified mind, the EA was filled with monsters and freaks. This, of course isn't true. But I was told so by society, and by my own subconscious.

I read my first story from the Fiction Archive almost by accident. It was the faux medical pamphlet "Neutersol". I'm not sure who was the originating author of that idea. But a line in the story caught my attention. It was something like, "Your child may not even know they have been castrated until they are much older." That thought obsessed me, but I couldn't tell you why at the time. The stories kept me coming back time and again, both in an effort to understand, and because they spoke to me. When I read those stories, I stopped feeling like a monster. I stopped thinking my desires for castration were wrong. In the moment of suspension of disbelief, who I was was normal. Who I was wasn't a freak.

The stories let me live vicariously in a mental space where what I wanted was safe, and accepted. Therapy couldn't do that for me. The world didn't give me this. When I read the stories, it was the only time I didn't have to hide what I was.

For me, it took learning about my physical condition to join the EA community and seek help. That took a very long time. Well over ten years. For others, it has taken much less time. For others yet, they may still be waiting for their reason. The Fiction Archive was a lifeline to me while my self hate was greatest. From what I have learned, I am not alone in that.

I've heard it again and again, "I found the stories first, before I found the archive." or "I never would have joined if I hadn't been reading the Fiction Archive."

Society has programmed us to believe that what we want is wrong. We cannot speak it or think it. Therefore, we won't participate in the forums, because we can't say those things. We can't stand to admit to our desires (even anonymously) because that exposes us as a terrible creature. The stories stand as a way for people who are afraid of starting a dialog to passively interact. They can feel accepted while active interaction remains a bridge too far.

When I joined the forums, and I hadn't posted much yet, beside my screen name were the words, "I am shy." I definitely was. After a number of posts came the words, "I am a Valid Person." I like to think these words are not by accident. Before I started posting, I was shy. It was fear mixed with self loathing. "I am a Valid Person." has become a kind of motto or mantra for me.

R

Cainanite (imported) wrote: Mon Jul 11, 2011 12:34 am eading the Fiction Archive was the only t

ime, in many dark hours, I felt Valid. Once I could find the bravery to participate in the forums, I finally earned that feeling. It took the Fiction Archive to help me feel Valid. It took the forums to finally accept my validity.

For myself and many others, one cannot exist without the other.

The Fiction Archive stood as a place where we could vicariously feel like a valid person, even when we couldn't yet accept that feeling into our lives. This is how reading the Archive helps people. It is how having the stories brings people to the EA community.

Just writing a story for me was cathartic, but without a place to share it, It stood as nothing more than the ravings of my hated subconscious. I couldn't write the same story again. Because writing it, and sharing it changed me. Unleashing it into the proper forum let me deal with my feelings in the right way, with the correct context. I could publish my next story elsewhere on the internet, and I may yet do that. Without the proper context for it however, I fear the messages of it, and the intention will be lost. Will it really help anyone, without the backbone of the EA Forums for it to rest against? Will it help me without the context of the Fiction Archive? Will the themes I've written, but not yet come to discover consciously, be explored if published outside the Eunuch context?

Our feelings and what we struggle with are valid. We may not know it yet, but they are. The stories stand as a way to feel valid, even when we can't accept it yet.

On a separate note about the "Minor" tagged stories. (This is purely my own feeling, after exploring what those stories mean to me.)

I do not think minor stories act as a lure for pedophiles. A true pedophile seeks the destruction of childhood innocence. The release comes from the destruction. The minor themed stories on the Fiction Archive are about the preservation of innocence, or the reclamation of innocence. They are about overcoming abuse and the horrors of childhood. They are about accepting what we are, or where we wish to be. A pedophile is a predator, and I do not see a celebration of that predatory nature in the minor tagged stories of the Fiction Archive. I do not think a pedophile would be attracted to such stories. They desire sexual power for the sake of sexual power. I cannot see how the minor stories on the Fiction Archive would appeal to them. I may be wrong about this, but I thought it was important to mention, and possibly start a dialog about.

Anyway anybody looks at it, it's still just black letters on white background. Words forming inside your brain is simply fantasy, imaginatory, not reality.

There are worse stuff legal on the Internet. This isn't even bad by comparison. It's expression. It's art per definition. It's our right!

Oh, and are the Personals gone for good?

Twinsenboy (imported) wrote: Sun Jul 24, 2011 9:05 am There are worse stuff legal on the Internet. This isn't even bad by comparison. It's expression. It's art per definition. It's our right!

Exactly. But there is also the idea of choosing one's battles. If the current hosting provider or staff aren't willing to host it, we need to respect that. Not as a way of giving in to the prudes, but of acknowledging that other people have feelings and preferences. Besides, while it is almost certain that any judicial review would agree with you (me) about the legality of the stories, the cost in time and effort to achieve that review might make it a Pyrrhic victory.

Suppose the EA site included a searchable index of stories posted in other places? How would we know there wouldn't be objections to them that are just as visceral as objections to having all the stories on the EA site? If the fear is that pressure might be brought on the hosting provider, where is the line beyond which everyone is comfortable that the pressure can be resisted? There are comments in the forum that are pretty objectionable, after all.

There are other factors too. If the fiction archive causes too much traffic, will there be money to pay for the increased resources or charges? If the controversy causes some passionate crazies to try to crash the EA server(s), will that be a problem?

Lots of things to talk about at MoM.

Oh, I thought the problem was because those stories often include sex acts as well, and not just "preserving innocence"..?

But why would fiction and fantasy be banned when the worst things imaginable are allowed to happen for real?