In a perfect world with perfect parental love and support the dreams of children making decisions that they will be happy and content with for the rest of their lives could exist.

However, as we ALL know, the world is NOT a perfect place. The potential for harm due to parental, neglect, abuse or just plain apathy is ALWAYS present.

Then there is always the nature ~ nurture issue... that IS NOT trivial.

While one may know his (or her) own feelings, those feelings as a child are significantly shaped by parental authority and environment. Making rules that minors may have life-changing body modifications opens up the whole child abuse can of worms and forces everybody, counselors, doctors, clergy, parents, children and yes, even judges into the unfortunate position of reluctant clairvoyant.

Since science cannot give a completely unconditional answer or make a 100% accurate prediction why would we set ourselves up claiming to possess this capability?

Our visions are the clearest only in retrospect.

It is 18.

Leave it alone.

or older

River

I've shared this story with Jesus before, and he found it amusing and anecdotal, so here goes.

Five years ago, when G3 was a cute and affectionate ten-year-old and so were all of his baseball teammates, we had one boy on the team who had a castration curiosity. He would often not wear a cup as catcher or pitcher in hopes that he'd get his testicles smashed and have to have them removed. As anyone who has spent time with young boys knows, their conversations tend to wander in odd directions, and genitals are one of them that comes up (no pun intended) quite often. This kid honestly saw no purpose for having testicles.

Enter me, the 'drafted' assistant coach for the week and one overheard conversation that had my jaw on the ground in shock. Then he decides he wants to go home with G3 for the day, as there was another game later that night and he had a long trip home and back. Of course, G3's parents were going out for a day trip, which had left G3 in my care for the day. Enter Mom, who only knows me from the ballpark and being the photographer, who happily sends her son home with us with her blessing of "just bring him back sometime before Monday morning."

Hello?!

I think it's time to have a conversation with this woman, which I did. She found it laughable that her cute and somewhat effeminate ginger child had this fixation, and yes, she'd overheard this same line of talk before. The boy was terrified of growing up to be "a hairy monster" like his older brother, who was often the topic of bizarre conversations in the bleachers along the lines of such strange things about waxing his ass because he's so "furry".

What kind of family is MY kid hanging out with, anyway?!

"Mom, can you get me a salon wax tonight? My girlfriend is complaining about it again."



So I ask her if they've had "the talk," as I've already brought up four others and am currently supply the oldest 3 with condoms. Yes, they've had the talk. She finds it amusing. And in something that could very well be an EA story, yes, they live on a farm.

Jesus, can it get any better?!

Have I left reality behind for la-la land?

Queue up Rod Serling, "Enter a world where little boys down on the farm dream of being castrated like farm animals..."

So I ask permission, if it should come up again, to address certain issues, should they come up.

She says that's fine, "he's a dirty minded little kid."

Is CvanD lurking behind a tree? By this time, I'm to the raised eyebrow stage.

Enter Fate, as one other boy on the field gets a foot the balls from the sliding runner coming into 3rd base.

By now, you know what the topic of conversation is all the way home, into which I boldly go to set this kid straight. Keep in mind, he refers to his testicles as "accessories". I calmly explain the things that happen during puberty, which the two of them already know about. "We've had THE FILM" they tell me. "We know where babies come from," they tell me.

I counter with, "Do you know why you castrate cattle and such?"

Of course, SB knows. He's a farmer's kid.

And he thinks it's a great idea.

I tell him to wait a few more years, and get back with me on this topic when he's about fourteen or fifteen. "But I'm gonna end up like my brother!" He replies.

How do "I" end up in these situations? Why's it always me?

A few years pass, after convincing the kid to leave his 'accessories' right where they are and wait.

Two years later, puberty hits hard and fast. This is not the same kid. Suddenly this cute little pudgy and somewhat whiny child has a harem following him around, and he's a bigger baseball 'star' now than he ever was. I subtly ask him, after a game, if he remembered the conversation we had the night he spent with me and G3 and fell over his own feet and dislocated two of his fingers.

His face gets very red, and he nods. "I'm glad I kept 'em," he tells me.

The moral of this story?

Is there one?

Well, in retrospect, in the boy's "new" condition as a testosterone-fueled "hairy monster", he was perfectly happy with it.

Would he have been happy, had he managed to get himself castrated somehow?

I somehow doubt it.

What it comes down to is that Kewldawg and Cainanite sum it up pretty well, and I guess the moral is that you just never know.

However, can you spot a passing fixation upon an idea, and differentiate it from the real BIID or gender dysphoria issue?

I for one am not qualified to diagnose such.

Chemical castration and delay of puberty is reversible. There are piles of data on this, and unlike surgery, it's reversible.

Surgery isn't.

So I still have to stand by my belief that a child that young isn't capable of making an informed decision for something as permanent as castration.

And yes, it happened. Honestly. Now you know where story ideas come from.

The truth and life can be, and often are, stranger than EA fiction.

Yeah, I think if young people were motivated and encouraged by others to realize they are good enough as they are, maybe they'd realize they are comfortable living with their bodies.. for the rest of their lives, growing hairy or not.

KewlDawg (imported) wrote: Mon Oct 22, 2012 11:31 am I don't think this is a "one size fits all" kind of question.

Could a 10 year old boy be castrated, and later when they are 50, regret that they had it done? Sure.

Could a 10 year old boy who's not allowed to be castrated, later when they are 50, regret that they spent the last 40 past years of their life unfulfilled? Sure.

You can't get your balls back. But you equally can't get 40 years of your life back either. There is no "replay" in life for anything.

It's still a different kind of regret. An older guy can always get castrated, after having experienced all of being virile, having biological children, and all the other testosterone-filled "joys". A guy who is castrated young has no chance of ever experiencing those things naturally. Also, you can question an older guy on whether his delay in getting it might actually because he himself isn't entirely sure.

You also have to look at the whole span of life -- assuming you will live to average age, if you wait until 40s to get castrated you still get half your life ahead of you to experience that. If you get castrated at 25 that is a LONG time to have to live with the choice.

Unless you are actually doing criminal things (pedophile, rapist, etc.) there is nothing really lost in waiting to go through with it, after being totally sure of what you are doing. No matter how intense the urge to get castrated seems to you, there isn't usually a real urgency to get it done and waiting can only help avoid real regret.

kristoff wrote: Fri Oct 05, 2012 6:22 pm As a general rule, I believe that anyone who has reached the age of majority should be able to do as he / she pleases….

I think it is a good thing that younger folks are discovering what they need and acting on it earlier. My only wish, aside from attaining what many find necessary, is that thorough thought and introspection be done first, before action.

I agree with Kristoff, and want to emphasize his critical point. Prior to any legitimate surgeon removing a functioning body part s/he would need assurance that the patient knows exactly what he is getting into. This requires a few counseling sessions with a licensed psychologist or psychiatrist who is willing to accept castration as a legitimate possibility (leaving out the majority of those professionals). The individual needs to work though the reasons WHY he wants castration and be able to convince a professional that the reason(s) are valid. Certainly some are. (See below)

As far back as the mid-1940s, Dr. D.O. Cauldwell, M.D, Sc.D. wrote that castration ought to be readily available for those who seek it. Cauldwell was the first to clearly distinguish between physiological sex and psychological gender and the first to use the term “transsexual” in its modern meaning of someone who desired a change of sex.

The full text of his 1947 pamphlet Effects of Castration on Men and Women is on the Non-Fiction Articles board, though it’s been badly scrambled by all of the system crashes since its original posting. I need to either re

SplitDik (imported) wrote: Tue Oct 23, 2012 8:19 pm -post it or completely edit it to clean it up.

An older guy can always get castrated, after having experienced all of being virile, having biological children, and all the other testosterone-filled "joys….

Unless you are actually doing criminal things (pedophile, rapist, etc.) there is nothing really lost in waiting to go through with it, after being totally sure of what you are doing. No matter how intense the urge to get castrated seems to you, there isn't usually a real urgency to get it done

and waiting can only help avoid real regret.

Here, I disagree with SplitDik. There are valid reasons why castration (or, at least hormone blockers) need to be available to some before puberty.

While there are many different reasons for wanting castration (or penectomy) expressed here on the Eunuch Archive, I see two, which really deserve immediate consideration and help from both counselors and physicians.

For those with BIID who have not yet gone completely through puberty, they need assurance that surgery will be available at the right time. They want to be male, just not with those offensive parts attached. Those parts provide more than just testosterone and should probably be kept until about age 25 when puberty is completely finished. While they don’t want the parts, they want the results that the parts will bring. Since they want to be male, they need to bank sperm in case they later want to be a parent.

For those with Male-to-Eunuch gender dysphoria, where they do not want to be male, but do not want to be female either, being forced to go through the wrong puberty (or puberty at all) can be devastating. They need hormone blockers starting at about age 12 or 13 and assurances that, if they are still certain of their desires, surgery will be available once they reach legal adulthood. (In some places those with the standard binary MtF or FtM can get surgery as young as 16. Maybe some day it will also be available for those who can demonstrate that they are MtE as well.)

There are now a number of counselors and physicians who will prescribe hormone blockers to MtF or FtM individuals to prevent an unwanted puberty. I know of only one in the United States who has felt comfortable prescribing hormone blockers to a 12 year-old MtE boy.

Progress is being made, though far too slowly.

JesusA (imported) wrote: Wed Oct 24, 2012 1:27 pm Here, I disagree with SplitDik. There are valid reasons why castration (or, at least hormone blockers) need to be available to some before puberty.

While there are many different reasons for wanting castration (or penectomy) expressed here on the Eunuch Archive, I see two, which really deserve immediate consideration and help from both counselors and physicians.

For those with BIID who have not yet gone completely through puberty, they need assurance that surgery will be available at the right time. They want to be male, just not with those offensive parts attached. Those parts provide more than just testosterone and should probably be kept until about age 25 when puberty is completely finished. While they don’t want the parts, they want the results that the parts will bring. Since they want to be male, they need to bank sperm in case they later want to be a parent.

For those with Male-to-Eunuch gender dysphoria, where they do not want to be male, but do not want to be female either, being forced to go through the wrong puberty (or puberty at all) can be devastating. They need hormone blockers starting at about age 12 or 13 and assurances that, if they are still certain of their desires, surgery will be available once they reach legal adulthood. (In some places those with the standard binary MtF or FtM can get surgery as young as 16. Maybe some day it will also be available for those who can demonstrate that they are MtE as well.)

There are now a number of counselors and physicians who will prescribe hormone blockers to MtF or FtM individuals to prevent an unwanted puberty. I know of only one in the United States who has felt comfortable prescribing hormone blockers to a 12 year-old MtE boy.

Progress is being made, though far too slowly.

I agree with anyone seeking castration due gender identity should be transitioned as early as possible, but I think this thread was more about other castrations. I was responding to the context of the original post which was "

JustAGuy (imported) wrote: Tue Dec 29, 2009 3:19 pm Okay, what do you all think the youngest a guy should be before he can be legally castrated for reasons other than medical reason? Like if he wants to be castrated at a young age do you think the boy should be allowed to have it done?

"

No. He doesn't know what he's losing, even if he thinks he does.

Castration fantasies can be just a phase.

I agree with justjustin. It certainly CAN be a passing fancy. That is why there needs to be more education with doctors and psychologists about the subject, as well as parents and guardians need to be educated.

On a lot of other sites I am on, a lot of new parents actually believe that if they have their infant son circumcised, that it will 100% prevent cancer later in life (all forms) and is as effective at preventing the spread of AIDS as condoms. I actually had one new parent tell me they had their son circumcised because she doesn't want her baby to suffer from being gay! She truly believed that if she let her child keep his foreskin, that he would immediately become homosexual. (What the F**k?)

It is the adults that are not educated about these things. They are the ones that need to understand and recognize that not all children are the same. Not all of our brains are wired in the same way.

Can a castration fixation be a passing notion? Yes. Can it be a persistent condition like BIID, or gender dysmorphia? Absolutely.

Science is slowly coming to understand that some children really are born in the wrong body. MtF Transexuals and FtM Transexuals are making headway. However there is also the MtE Transexuals who simply do not view themselves in such a binary way.

I know that for the vast majority of children these issues will never come up. Further, for those where this issue does arise, a great number will surely grow out of the notion. That does leave a small number of individuals where castration may in fact be the more desirable outcome.

It may be very rare, but as I have come to understand, there are always exceptions to every rule. Some children may in fact be better off if they are castrated in childhood. They may well be able to understand the consequences, just as an adult can. They may well experience a fuller life, and be more comfortable with themselves as people.

I will never advocate that childhood castration should become common. I would rebel against any society that made such a practice common. Though I write about such worlds in my fiction, the reality would be horrific. My writing about such worlds is meant to be taken along the lines of Jonathan Swift's "A Modest Proposal". My stories are meant to unsettle the reader, by facing a reality that must be prevented.

No one here thinks the world would benefit by castrating children against their will. No one thinks that just because a child walks into a doctor's office and asks to have his balls off, that the doctor should immediately comply. Instead, the question is, how much can a child really know their own mind and body? Can a child ever make that decision, and have it taken seriously?

My answer is, sometimes. Some children can, and some should. I would expect that number to be incredibly small, but I must recognize that it nonetheless exists.

The key answer to this dilemma is that should the question arise with a child, the adults involved should seek the education to understand. They should probe the question more deeply, and with an open mind. Always they should proceed with caution. Wherever possible, they should not proceed where other, reversible options are available. The effects of puberty inhibiting drugs are reversible. The effects of surgical castration are not.

Interesting articles on ealier puberty in boys just incase you missed it.

http://blog.al.com/live/2012/10/earlier ... oys_j.html

Earlier puberty seen in boys, just like in girls

By The Associated Press Press-Register

on October 22, 2012 at 3:32 AM, updated October 22, 2012 at 3:33 AM

Email | PrintBrought to you by

CHICAGO - When it comes to the birds and the bees, some parents may want to have that talk with their boys a little sooner than they expected.

Researchers have found signs of puberty in American boys up to two years earlier than previously reported — age 9 on average for blacks, 10 for whites and Hispanics. Other studies have suggested that girls, too, are entering puberty younger.

Why is this happening? Theories range from higher levels of obesity and inactivity to chemicals in food and water, all of which might interfere with normal hormone production. But those are just theories, and they remain unproven.

Doctors say earlier puberty is not necessarily cause for concern. And some experts question whether the trend is even real.

Dr. William Adelman, an adolescent medicine specialist in the Baltimore area, says the new research is the first to find early, strong physical evidence that boys are maturing earlier. But he added that the study still isn't proof and said it raises a lot of questions.

Earlier research based on 20-year-old national data also suggested a trend toward early puberty in boys, but it was based on less rigorous information. The new study involved testes measurements in more than 4,000 boys. Enlargement of testes is generally the earliest sign of puberty in boys.

The study was published online Saturday in Pediatrics to coincide with the American Academy of Pediatrics' national conference in New Orleans.

Dr. Neerav Desai, an adolescent medicine specialist at Vanderbilt University in Nashville, said he's seen a subtle trend toward slightly earlier puberty in boys. He said it's important for parents and doctors to be aware so they can help children emotionally prepare for the changes that come with puberty.

Doctors generally consider puberty early if it begins before age 8 in girls and before age 9 in boys.

Boys are more likely than girls to have an underlying physical cause for early puberty. But it's likely that most, if not all, of the boys in the study were free of any conditions that might explain the results, said lead author Marcia Herman-Giddens, a researcher at the University of North Carolina in Chapel Hill.

Problems such as thyroid abnormalities and brain tumors have been linked to early puberty. But boys with chronic medical conditions or who were using medicines that could affect puberty were excluded from the research.

In girls, early puberty has been linked with increased chances for developing breast cancer, but whether it poses health risks for boys is uncertain. Some scientists think early testes development may increase the risk for testicular cancer, but a recent research analysis found no such link.

"If it's true that boys are starting puberty younger, it's not clear that means anything negative or has any implications for long-term," said Adelman, a member of the American Academy of Pediatrics' committee on adolescence.

For the new study, researchers recruited pediatricians in 41 states who participate in the academy's office-based research network. Doctors asked parents and boys aged 6 to 16 to take part during regular checkups. The visits took place between 2005 and 2010.

Half of the boys were white. The rest were almost evenly divided among blacks and Hispanics.

On average, white boys started puberty at age 10, a year and a half earlier than what has long been considered the normal average. For black boys, the average age of 9 was about two years earlier than in previous research. Among Hispanics, age 10 was similar to previous research that only involved Mexican-American boys. The new study included boys from other Hispanic backgrounds.

Testes enlargement was seen at age 6 in 9 percent of white boys, almost 20 percent of blacks and 7 percent of Hispanics.

Pubic hair growth, another early sign of puberty, started about a year after testes enlargement in all groups but still earlier than previously thought.

In girls, breast development is the first sign, and recent research suggested that it starts at age 7 in about 10 percent of white girls, 23 percent of blacks and 15 percent of Hispanics. That's substantially higher than rates reported more than a decade ago.

But some experts have questioned methods used in studies in girls, noting that the age when girls start menstruating has not changed much and remains around age 12 on average.

Dr. Dianne Deplewski, a pediatric endocrinologist at the University of Chicago, has not seen any increase in boys referred to her for signs of early puberty. She said it's possible that the new study results were skewed by families who brought their boys to the doctor because they already had concerns about their health.

The study had other limitations. Testes were measured just once, and doctors weren't randomly recruited but volunteered to participate. That means it's possible that those with early maturing patients were overly represented, but Herman-Giddens said it's unlikely boys in the study were different from those in the general U.S. population.

She said the research methods weren't perfect but that they're the best to date. She also stressed that the results shouldn't be used to establish a "new normal" for the start of puberty in boys.

"Just because this is happening doesn't mean this is normal or healthy," the researcher said.