To explain my interest in juvenile castration I have to blame - if that's the word - my mother. Her year of birth was 1903, at which date both the Chinese and the Ottoman Empire were still going concerns, and parts of the Arab world in a state of medievalism. Consequently, into her teens, she would have been aware that in large areas of the world, castrating young boys was part of the culture.

All this she explained to me at the time of my own near-miss with a cricket ball, which might have left me as a juvenile eunuch (fortunately for me, clever surgeons sorted things out, and at 73 I'm intact, a father three times over and a grandfather also.)

My mother never minced matters. A boy was always "taken

C van D (imported) wrote: Tue Nov 07, 2006 7:27 am to the doctor to have his little

balls cut off, so that he could never "do it" with a girl (expressions I've used in the Simon stories time and again). She got a lot of things wrong, notably that castration in adulthood restored a treble voice. She insisted that Peter Abelard showed this characteristic.

C van D

Uncle Flo (imported) wrote: Tue Nov 07, 2006 10:23 am A remarkable story, one which speaks powerfully and directly to the sort of motivation that is being discussed here. I suspect that there are few writers that are latent abusers and many that have something in their past, even without conscious awareness, that creates a desire to explore the subject as fiction. --FLO--

So long as we comprehend the difference between fiction and reality. Some seem to have a problem with this differentiation.

Paolo wrote: Sat Nov 25, 2006 11:33 pm So long as we comprehend the difference between fiction and reality. Some seem to have a problem with this differentiation.

Precisely!

These are the people who come here seeking at times and by us providing a grounding in reality to them, their own tragedy may be prevented, but most importantly, the tragedy of a child may be prevented...

Paolo in his lengthy comments dated 27th February 2005 (which I've only just seen) mentions a letter from a titled French lady of the "castrati" era (not an impossibly long time ago) trying to persuade her little page boy to have his testicles taken out. Paolo queries the lady's motives: presumably she had teenage daughters and wanted them kept out of temptation's way.

This is of interest to me because in my story "Made Safe" the plot depends on the French landed aristocracy becoming a market for neutered page-boys. This was (at the time of writing) a blind swipe, I'd no idea that such a market existed in real life. Subsequently a Member who had read "Made Safe" asserted that it still did exist and my story was more than just fantasy.

Comments?

C van D

This morning, Marty Klein PhD asked four related questions about child pornography and pedophilia of the members of the SexNet listserve. SexNet is open only to professionals in sex research and counseling. As far as I can tell, every member has either an MD or a PhD (and many of them have both).

Philip Tromovitch PhD has written the only reply thus far. He is probably the world’s expert on the sexual abuse of children and its consequences.

Dr. Klein’s original questions are in black. Dr. Tromovitch’s answers are in blue.

Marty Klein wrote:

Is there any actual evidence that:

* reading stories of adult-child sexual activity makes adults more likely to have sex with children?

None that I know of. And it's counter intuitive. Interest in that type of story would be a prerequisite to continued reading of such a story (interest comes causally first). And time spent reading is time not spent engaging in partnered sexual activity (hence fewer contacts).

* looking at pictures of adult-child sexual activity makes adults more likely to have sex with children?

Same as above.

See Diamond and Uchiyama (1999), International Journal of Law and Psychiatry, Vol. 22, No. 1, pp. 1–22, "Pornography, Rape, and Sex Crimes in Japan"

As "child pornography" availability increases, sex crimes against children decrease. Pornography acts as an alternative to partnered sexual contact, reducing contacts. This applies to both child and adult pornography. The more pornography, the fewer crimes. (Start with the Diamond article but see also the articles by Kutchinsky).

* adults show children pictures of adult-child sexual activity specifically to get these children to eventually comply with requests for sex? does this exposure actually make kids more likely to do so?

(tongue in cheek:) only if it looks like fun.

* the majority of adults who enjoy looking at pictures or reading stories of adult-child sexual interaction participate in adult-child sexual activity?

Clearly false. Given the large proportion of the population that has these interests (I am not talking about exclusive interest, but inclusive interest), there appear to be far too few contacts to justify such a belief. For a bibliography of studies showing large interest, see my posting from last week.

Original questions by Marty Klein, Ph.D

His web site is located at: www.SexEd.org

Information on his most recent book can be found at: www.AmericasWarOnSex.com

Answers (shown in blue) are by Philip Tromovitch, Ph.D.

Here is the bibliography that Tromovitch references:

Barbaree, H. E., & Marshall, W. L. (1989). "Erectile responses among heterosexual child molesters, father-daughter incest offenders, and matched nonoffenders: Five distinct age preference profiles." Canadian Journal of Behavioral Sciences, 21, 70-82.

Briere, J., & Runtz, M. (1989). "University males' sexual interest in children: Predicting potential indices of "pedophilia" in a non-forensic sample." Child Abuse and Neglect, 13, 65-75.

Briere, J., Henschel, D., & Smiljanich, K. (1992). "Attitudes toward sexual abuse: Sex differences and construct validity." Journal of Research in Personality, 26, 398- 406.

Byers, S.E., Purdon, C., & Clark, D.A. (1998). Sexual intrusive thoughts of college students." Journal of Sex Research, 35, 359-369.

Condy, Sylvia, Templer, Donald, Brown, Ric, & Veaco, Lelia (1987). "Parameters of sexual contact of boys with women." Archives of Sexual Behavior, 16(5), 379-394.

Crepault, C., & Couture, M. (1980). "Men's erotic fantasies." Archives of Sexual Behavior, 9, 565-581.

Farrall, W.R. (1992). "Instrumentation and methodological issues in the assessment of sexual arousal." In W. O'Donohue & J.H. Geer (Eds.), The sexual abuse of children:

Clinical Issues, Volume 2 (pp. 188-231) Hillsdale, New Jersey: Lawrence Erlbaum Associates.

Fedora, O., Reddon, J. R., Morrison, J. W, Fedora, S. K., Pascoe, H., & Yendall, L. T. (1992). "Sadism and other paraphilias in normal controls and aggressive and nonaggressive sex offenders." Archives of Sexual Behavior, 21, 1-15.

Freund, K., McKnight, C.K., Langevin, R., & Cibiri, S. (1972). "The female child as surrogate sex object." Archives of Sexual Behavior, 2, 119-133.

Fromuth, M.E., & Conn, V.E. (1997). "Hidden perpetrators: Sexual molestation in a nonclinical sample of college women." Journal of Interpersonal Violence, 12, 456- 465.

Hall, G.C., Hirschman, R., & Oliver, L.L. (1995). "Sexual arousal and arousability to pedophilic stimuli in a community sample of normal men." Behavior Therapy, 26, 681- 694.

Hayashino, D.S., Wurtele, S.K., & Klebe, K.J. (1995). "Child molesters: An examination of cognitive factors." Journal of Interpersonal Violence, 10, 106-116.

Kellogg, N.D., & Hoffman, T.J. (1995). "Unwanted and illegal sexual experiences in childhood and adolescence." Child Abuse & Neglect, 19, 1457-1468.

Kilpatrick, Allie (1982). "The consequences of childhood sexual experiences for adult functioning." Florida State University. Dissertation.

Kilpatrick, Allie (1987). "Childhood sexual experiences: Problems and issues in studying long-range effects." Journal of Sex Research, 23(2), 173-196.

Langevin, R., Hucker, S.J., Ben-Aron, M. H., Purins, J.E., & Hook, H.J. (1985). "Why are pedophiles attracted to children? Further studies of erotic preference in heterosexual pedophilia." In R. Langevin (Ed.), Erotic preference, gender identity, and aggression in men: New research studies (pp. 181-209). Hillsdale, NJ: Erlbaum.

Marshall, W. L., Barbaree, H. E., & Christophe, D. (1986). "Sexual offenders against female children: Sexual preferences for age of victims and type of behavior." Canadian Journal of Behavioral Sciences, 18, 424-439.

McConaghy, N., Zamir, R., & Manicavasagar, V. (1993). "Non-sexist sexual experiences survey and scale of attraction to sexual aggression." Australian and New Zealand Journal of Psychiatry, 27, 686-693.

Smiljanich, K. & Briere, J. (1996). "Self-reported sexual interest in children: Sex differences and psychosocial correlates in a university sample." Violence & Victims, 11, 39-50.

Templeman, Terral, & Stinnett, Ray (1991). "Patterns of sexual arousal and history in a 'normal' sample of young men." Archives of Sexual Behavior, 20(2), 137-150.

I have included the [MINOR] tag in two of the stories that I have written.

I have never understood the obsession that people have with sexual stories involving young people. I know for a fact that some of the people who are horrified by the very thought that someone somewhere might be reading about a young person's fictional sexual encounter, are also people who watch horror movies where people get killed in gruesome ways. They even enjoy watching it.

What's worse, they don't understand how they are being hypocritical. Every argument that I have ever seen against minor sexuality in fiction works just as well when applied to violence or unlawfulness in fiction in any form.

Most people enjoy seeing things in fiction that would turn their stomach or psychologically traumatize them for life if they saw it happen in reality. In fact, it's really amazing how many people are like that, and I am sure that it includes most of the people who are outraged to see sex with young boys in fiction. Sex with young boys and castration of young boys are just two more of those horrifying things that people enjoy in fiction and hate in life.

Just watch almost any horror movie and imagine how you'd react if you were living the events that you see there. I know that I would react very very differently. I have no idea why we feel that way, but we do. I think that some of the people who protest so strongly at the stories which include [MINOR] in them might learn something about themselves by thinking that over.

Personally, I don't like children. I put in [MINOR] whenever I have people under 18 in my stories, but they are always teenagers and I write them pretty much as little adults. I'd never include a 12-year-old in a story because they are just too immature for me to find interesting.

On the other hand, an awkward teen just discovering sexuality, effectively an adult but still very inexperienced, is a very fun thing. My teens are just sexually inexperienced adults, but I put in [MINOR] because I know that some people might be offended by even that. I can't imagine a more fun thing than an awkward teen made even more awkward by ponderous sexual organs and trying to come to grips with his sexuality, and then just when he thinks he's got it under control, he loses everything.

But of course, I mean that in fiction. If you make me live that sort of thing, I would probably vomit. In fiction it is the most fun. In life it is as far from fun as anything can be.

Could it be that fiction is a mirror onto our society, but instead of reflecting the left onto the right, it reflects the good onto the bad? How else could a story about a horrible killer be enjoyed by so many people?

Well,

I first had sexual contact as a minor...but it was with another minor...a female...

I think that kids tending toward sexual activity should be passively directed another direction and one should NOT make a big deal out of it...just try to get their minds off of it...

...and just because a child is curious about sex DOES NOT mean that they want to have sex with an adult...that is just preposterous...

...I DO NOT agree that sexually curious minors are "inexperienced adults"...

What they are is undersupervised children... of course, if a child (or young person) wants to have sex they will probably have sex. The question is WHY?

It is usually because they have been "initiated" into sexual activity...by another child or a child who has been having such activity with somebody who is older...

...They see sex, sex, sex...on the popular media and in our Western society and it is little wonder that they are curious about it. ...Of course, it is not much different than being raised on a farm...and seeing animals engaged in sexual activity.

There is nothing wrong with discussing sex with a minor, as long as they initiate the subject and it is just discussion. It is just engaging in it with a minor that is not right...

A-1 (imported) wrote: Sun Feb 04, 2007 11:30 pm ...I DO NOT agree that sexually curious minors are "inexperienced adults"...

Perhaps I should explain my intention. I was only trying to say that in my stories I write teens as being inexperienced adults. I didn't mean to suggest that I believe that to be the case. Actually, I'm sure that I write them rather inaccurately.

Well,

A-1 (imported) wrote: Sun Feb 04, 2007 11:30 pm What they are is undersupervised children... of course, if a child (or young person) wants to have sex they will probably have sex. The question is WHY?

It is usually because they have been "initiated" into sexual activity...by another child or a child who has been having such activity with somebody who is older...

...They see sex, sex, sex...on the popular media and in our Western society and it is little wonder that they are curious about it. ...Of course, it is not much different than being raised on a farm...and seeing animals engaged in sexual activity.

I grew up in the 50's when movies didn't show couples together in the same bed, there was no Internet, and porn was a picture of a naked woman. Still, kids were having sex. Several 14 year-old girls in our school became pregnant, but I don't think any of it had anything to do with a "

A-1 (imported) wrote: Sun Feb 04, 2007 11:30 pm child who has been having such activity with somebody who is older...

" It was all about hormones and the pressure they put on both boys and girls. Every boy I knew wanted to get a "piece of ass," and most guys that went "steady" fucked their girl friends.

We're programmed to become sexually active after puberty. Girls used to be married at 13 or 14 and boys were often considered men by that age. The world has changed, society has changed, but until they decide to delay puberty until the age of 18 (not by any means recommending that) kids are going to have sex, and pretending that they don't, refusing to write about it or to discuss it, isn't going to change that.

Governments seem to think that censorship is the solution. If it weren't for freedom of speech in our country, every story in the Archive about children would illegal, subjecting the Archive and the authors of them to penalties. It would be illegal to even draw a picture of a kid engaged in sex. Those laws are already on the books. The courts just haven't allowed them to be enforced in this country. One man was actually found guilty of child pornography for fantasies he'd written in his diary. Fortunately, the conviction was over turned. In other countries, people have been convicted of child pornography for writing stories much milder than those found on the Archive.

I've already discussed in this thread my reasons for writing castration stories about kids, so if you want to know my reasons, read some of my previous posts.

JesusA (imported) wrote: Sat Feb 03, 2007 9:02 pm * reading stories of adult-child sexual activity makes adults more likely to have sex with children?

None that I know of. And it's counter intuitive. Interest in that type of story would be a prerequisite to continued reading of such a story (interest comes causally first). And time spent reading is time not spent engaging in partnered sexual activity (hence fewer contacts).

If I remember right, someone told me Bboy said, when discussing whether to allow castration stories about kids, "If a guy is sitting at his computer jacking off to a castration story about kids, at least -- at that time -- he's not out abusing any." I'm certain I've mangled the quote, but that's the gist of it.

I'm not in favor of little kids (under puberty) having sex. As for stories about such things - well, a story is just a story.... There shouldn't be Mind Police who will arrest us for having "bad" thoughts or for writing in our private diaries, but in the real world, sadly enough, such folks do exist.

Kids will do sexual stuff with other kids without needing an adult show them what to do - they can and do discover things on their own. The Victorian approach of trying to hide sexuality from children just does not work.

As for castration stories about kids - why not? The typical horror movie or violent video game shows things like decapitation and amputation. Castration isn't that different. Duh!