becky666 (imported) wrote: Wed Apr 15, 2009 7:12 pm There are a lot of us that dont blend in well. I know that and I do feel sorry for those with passing issues. Its a cheap shot to say you pass better than some post ops because without something to cover up your reality, your dick dont pass the test. My pussy does. Even up close and even wrapped around your dick. And so do the pussies of all of the other post ops who have opted to stop pretending and get on with their lives (with a pussy).

Ive never been jealous of a tg before in my life though Ive been jealous of many women. My mother who loves me. My sister who loves me. All of the women on the planet who can have babies and I never will be able to.

Ive felt jealousy many times but not ever towards someone with a dick. Im almost 20 years older than you and Im prettier than you without makeup or clothes (directed squarely at the yeller)

becky

Well, I feel sorry for them too. Which is why I do not discriminate based on superficial appearances. I'm pointing out that if we all played the superficial card like the ones currently doing in this thread, more likely than not, those same people would be on the losing end.

Of course once again your focus being on the genitals shows how little you know of gender. I've emphasised this point enough so I won't do it again here. I don't want to sound like a bitter old woman. =)

As for whether you're really prettier or not, it doesn't matter either. Shame about the person that seems to reside on the inside. That you would choose to build your own identity by not accepting others. All that about you being a traditionalist and pragmatist, the exact same arguments given throughout the ages by people who are racist, sexist, homophobic etc... Ultimately they never stand up to scrutinity do they? Do you feel frustrated knowing that slowly but surely, your own set of beliefs are becoming discarded with the new evolution in thinking, new knowledge that we gain as a species? To have built your identity on the very thing that is being eroded right before your very eyes? No wonder you were bitter enough to post. When I read your post, all I can say is, I am sorry for you that you need to start boasting about having hunky husbands, being a model and the like, or about how good you've been lying to them, as though both of those are something to be proud of. By the way, in case you haven't realised, most female models, especially catwalk ones, have a certain "physical masculinity" to them, so once again if its the superficial you wish to harp on, you might not want to depend on that as a cornerstone of your female identity.

I think its been sufficiently demonstrated here, that some people are here because they don't care about superficial materialistic things like getting a trophy spouse, but are here to open the door to improve the quality of life for the people who have faced unfair exclusion. Then there are those for whom their identity is dependent on exclusion of others and the very opening of that door threatens to diminish that. It is sad that for some, they have to be selfish in that way.

I didn't want to say it before, but I knew EXACTLY the sort of responses I would elict from the superficial ones. Defence of their looks and passability (as though that matters to one's gender identity, maybe it does for THEM), all the "I have pussy you don't" statements, mistaken accusations that I love my boy bits (that made me lol so hard, because anyone who looks back to my 1st intro post will see that i've always said i might get rid of it someday and that i only accept it being there like a girl with a crooked nose accepts having a crooked nose, or any other physical defects for that matter), trophy husbands yada yada. None of which actually have ANY significance towards defining gender. My only worry is that they pass such ugly superficial attitudes on towards others and cause unnecessary harm. If anything, these are the people who damage the notion of womanhood and transsexualism as being dependent on something as crass and crude as the superficial.

Elizabeth (imported) wrote: Wed Apr 15, 2009 12:11 pm I do not believe we are in as much disagreement as you might think. I am pretty sure in my post I stipulated that what I had stated was the clinical definition of GID. "Transsexual" means "to change sex". I consider adrongenous to be a separate gender from male or female, but the DSM-IV does not. Nor does any legal authority. In our society one is either male or female from a legal standpoint.

I personally believe I am transsexual. I can't say about anyone else. Only they know. After all, psychiatrists don't tell us we are GID. We tell them. All transsexuality is self diagnosed. That automatically means it's going to mean different things to different people. I am all inclusive. I believe it's an outrage that I need anyone's permission to alter my body. Michael Jackson certainly didn't need anyone's permission and look what he did to himself? But if it makes him happy? What do I care? I don't believe I need to be protected from me.

My main point was that there are lots of people that believe they are transsexual, which determines who is and who is not transsexual, that are never going to transition. I never intended it to dis-include anyone that identifies as having GID or not, that wishes to express their feelings of gender in an unconventional way. I don't see anyone as being more transsexual or less transsexual. Because only each person can know what course of action is going to be best for them, given their circumstances.

Elizabeth

Ah, I see. The problem is that the DSM:IV is desperately out of date now, and the V won't be out till 2010? 2011? We're still having to depend on old definitions to base part of our debate on and that just handicaps the whole issue as the goal posts have been shifted further on now.

Hi there...

i´m since 8 months on mones (progesteron&estradiol).... can say it started as a test, now i feel very comfortable with it.... my sexdrive is getting lower, before starting i had to jerk of nearly 2-3 times per day and i hated it over the last years.... now i don´t need to masturbate every day.. and luv it..... last time i tested it is 5 days ago... and it still works... my seamen production is round about 10-20 % from when i started, a lil bit freaking but i´m ok with it....

Now, i have made the decision not to have an srs.... i was in relationship with 2 post ops and i have seen very ugly surgery scars and nonfunctional pussies as well... and the only thing for me is to get some small tits and an epilation of my facial and body hair..

Greetz, Nena

Hi Nena,

Firstly I would like to say that the decision as to whether one wishes to have the physical operation done or not is entirely personal and there is no "must" or "must not" about it. Whatever your choice is, nobody should be allowed to criticise you for it.

For some of us, life is too short to worry about the superficial stuff. I just want to get my head down and go. So much to do, so much to see, where would I be except piled with regrets if I wasted time worrying about how I could change a physical defect? No, I love life too much that I would just rather get on with it. Of course not everyone agrees, but funny how those who don't agree pigeonhole anyone who doesn't bother too much about appearances as being girls who:

"

becky666 (imported) wrote: Wed Apr 15, 2009 7:12 pm wag their wieners around in the bedroom, on camera or on boards like this give the rest of us a bad name and the funny thing is that many of them end up where I am when they get tired of pretending that 2+2=5

"

Truthfully I'd like to ask those same people to look around the entire internet and see if they can find any pictures of me ever wagging my bits around. I'm just someone who gets on with life instead of harping over my genitals either in a "i love it" or "i hate it" way. If years later I do get a penectomy or SRS, it won't be because I

becky666 (imported) wrote: Wed Apr 15, 2009 7:12 pm get tired of pretending that 2+2=5.

It will be because I simply decide that people are not judging me by the superficial anymore, and that it is time I can do it for myself and not for society.

Now, I would just like to address the general topic of post-op genital appearances and function. While it is true that sometimes the post-op result is lots of ugly surgery scars, in general those that I have seen look natural and would not be easily identified as a constructed one except under close scrutiny. I've also seen and heard some fellow TSes testify that they have full sexual functions as far as the leisure part of sex is concerned. Generally I would feel that the end result depends a lot on which surgeon you choose (which sometimes also mean how much you decide to spend) as well as a bit of luck, and that an aesthetically unpleasing post-op result is not common.

Again, from an "outsider's" point of view; pretty complicated stuff to me.

What I seem to be getting out of this is that

a) some people want to look and act and be accepted in the role of a person of the opposite sex, without going through the physical body modifications. They are more trans-behavior than trans-sexual. As long as their natural body makes this possible, there may not be any need for physical modifications. But even if they can be perceived as a person of a sexuality that is opposite of their physical body, they may have a personal craving to go further than that. And if their physical body isn't close to being accepted as that of the opposite sex, physical modifications become necessary.

b) So, whether it is necessary or not for personal and social acceptance, some people proceed as far as medically possible and alter their body so that it is, as much as possible, of the opposite sex from the way they were born.

And how each person views themselves

And how they want others to view them

And how others actually view them

can be as far apart as the rims of the Grand Canyon.

Trying to convince others to view you as you view yourself and as you want others to view you is certainly worth some effort as long as it involves good debate and intellectual dialogue. Beyond that however it becomes an exercise in futility and goes nowhere.

In some matters, for reasons unknown to ourselves, once we make up our mind on something not hell or high water, or rational reasoning, or mounds of documentation will get us to change our way of thinking. It might be possible, but is it really worth the effort required.

At that point, it is time to move on, let the balloon go, and realize that everyone will never agree with us on every issue. That is neither right nor wrong. It just is. It will always be. As long as we are not harming ourself or othes in any way, (physically, verbally, financially, etc.) what we perceive to be good for us is all that matters.

This becomes the point where acceptance is not likely to be forthcoming.

But is the point at which tolerance is needed.

Tolerance to accept that a person has a right to freedom, to live their personal life the way they want to, (again, without harm to themselves or others), whether we like it or not.

It is the point where we agree to disagree, and yet remain, if not friends, at least on friendly cordial terms with each other.

...

nullorchis (imported) wrote: Mon Apr 20, 2009 4:59 am At that point, it is time to move on, let the balloon go, and realize that everyone will never agree with us on every issue. That is neither right nor wrong. It just is. It will always be. As long as we are not harming ourself or othes in any way, (physically, verbally, financially, etc.) what we perceive to be good for us is all that matters.

This becomes the point where acceptance is not likely to be forthcoming.

But is the point at which tolerance is needed.

Tolerance to accept that a person has a right to freedom, to live their personal life the way they want to, (again, without harm to themselves or others), whether we like it or not.

It is the point where we agree to disagree, and yet remain, if not friends, at least on friendly cordial terms with each other.

Thank you, Nullorchis, for very effectively pointing out the need for tolerance of differing points of view. Each of us understands ourselves, even if imperfectly, better than anyone else ever can. I hope, perhaps naively, that one day we can celebrate our differences as part of the richness of human experience.

nullorchis (imported) wrote: Mon Apr 20, 2009 4:59 am As long as we are not harming ourself or othes in any way, (physically, verbally, financially, etc.) what we perceive to be good for us is all that matters.

I am very very happy to highlight what nullorcis has said.

Normally I wouldn't give a damn if someone came up to me and said I'm not a woman/trans because of a superficiality. I'd laugh them off for being ignorant and narrow minded and wouldn't waste anymore time on them.

However this is a forum that has an international community, and while the area of interest means that there may be less members than other forums, the number of people who access these forums is not insignificant.

When some people air the sort of views where their own sense of identity depends on putting down or excluding others over something as crass and insignificant as the superficial, then that violates the rule of "not harming others in any way". Then unfortunately, somebody has to point out just exactly how harmful those people and their views are.

Otherwise, I too, like Danya, hope that one day we can celebrate our diversity and fully accept, if not tolerate each other, and can learn to build our self identity on who we are, rather than who others are not.

I agree with Pricilla and I kept my body parts. However my desires for castration has to do with the negative studies on female hormones. I actually had one specialist throw me out of his office, citing that there is nothing he can do for me safely. Castration would allow me to cut the required dosage of taking female hormones in half. I also have no desire to do SRS surgery. I'm pretty happy with my transgenered status

Though I am reluctant to revive a thread that has produced too much bile already, the following article does a good job of expressing many of the points expressed here "SRS Is Not A Requirement To Be A 'Successful' Transsexual" ... http://transgriot.blogspot.com/2009/04/ ... ssful.html

Transward

great link Transward! Thanks for sharing.