mrt (imported) wrote: Tue Apr 24, 2007 6:04 am Hummm.... Well words mean things. I really r e a l l y have to wrap my head around that one. If being hormonally challanged makes you a eunuch I've probably never been anything but one except for a short period between puberty and having my pair fried by the mumps.

IEunuch (Who never gets enough respect) you say you take HRT? I'm way curious on how you feel on it, what you take and what kind of levels your at. Without intending any offense to those who seek a testosterone free life my life just sucked with even low levels. I don't want "Body Builder" levels but normal range for males is like heaven for me.

I think the idea that Eunuch = Non Male? Is the gist of why this doesn't float my boat. But of course I'm a dolt and probably not thinking this out clearly. :-\

I think as I read my post that its probably insulting to some... If I can end by saying I really don't intend that I'm thinking (rethinking) out loud.

This kind of thinking often shows up here. It is a good place to explore it

I don't think that "eunuch = non-male" is accurate. Male is a genetic condition (defect to some) that is not changed by eunuchism. Typicaly male behavior may change as will reproductive capacity but that is hardly the same thing. --FLO--

mrt (imported) wrote: Tue Apr 24, 2007 6:04 am IEunuch (Who never gets enough respect) you say you take HRT? I'm way curious on how you feel on it, what you take and what kind of levels your at. Without intending any offense to those who seek a testosterone free life my life just sucked with even low levels. I don't want "Body Builder" levels but normal range for males is like heaven for me.

I t

ake cypionate, 200mg every other week. Personally, I don't find it as good as the 'real' thing, and not as effective in terms of things like libido, etc. However, since my tests keep coming back in the 'normal' range*, that's what they're keeping me on.

mrt (imported) wrote: Tue Apr 24, 2007 6:04 am I think the idea that Eunuch = Non Male? Is the gist of why this doesn't float my boat. But of course I'm a dolt and probably not thinking this out clearly. :-\

That gets into one of those personal definition areas. There are a lot of people around here who see castration as a way to become a third sex, neither male nor female. There are those who just want to be rid of their sex drive, but don't necessarily want to stop being male, as well. There are those who lost them involuntarily, and definitely don't see themselves as any less male because of it.

*Canada uses a different measuring system, but my last test (done just before having my next shot) came back with levels of 11.9 nmol/L, which is on the low end of 'normal', or just under depending upon which values you consider 'normal'.

Hi Curious241 and welcome to EA!

I wanted to thank you for watching This Morning, and - particularly - for taking the time to ask the questions. People here are particularly lovely and I'm sure you will get some very friendly responses. As you know, we are a very diverse group; some are here voluntarily and some involuntarily. Of those who are voluntary eunuchs, the only commonly perceived connection is the idea of castration itself. And of these, it seems there are two distinct groups; those who see it as a gender dysphoria and those who's desires are probably better described as fetishistic. But before dismissing the fetishistic group as completely different, I would like to suggest something which has occurred to me recently.

Before castration, even I would harm myself. I may even have displayed some of the "perverted"(?) attributes you described. But before dismissing these entirely as simply a perverted sex act, I would like to remind people of something.

Many (if not most?) male-to-female transsexuals will have experienced some form of self-harm directed at the genitals, or the desire to loose them. I know one or two myself with very similar 'fantasies' to the ones I used to have.

I am here now, with them removed with absolutely no desire to harm myself further. I've come to absolutely love my body. It makes me shiver with cold and makes my skin crawl to think of some of the things I did to myself back then. It wasn't me. But a different me.

Testosterone is what makes someone male. It grows facial hair, builds body mass, but above all promotes sexual arousal.

Maybe there is some connection? Is it possible that the subconscious desire to remove this private (and sexual!) part of the body - in the presence of more testosterone than this person is happy with - can manifest itself in a strange kind of erroticized hatred (resentment?) of that part. These 'mutilations' being subconsciously directed at the self? (and ultimately the desired removal?) of the offending part?

Maybe there is more connection that just the act of castration itself?

I t

BossTamsin (imported) wrote: Tue Apr 24, 2007 11:42 am ake cypionate, 200mg every other week. Personally, I don't find it as good as the 'real' thing, and not as effective in terms of things like libido, etc. However, since my tests keep coming back in the 'normal' range*, that's what they're keeping me on.

That gets into one of those personal definition areas. There are a lot of people around here who see castration as a way to become a third sex, neither male nor female. There are those who just want to be rid of their sex drive, but don't necessarily want to stop being male, as well. There are those who lost them involuntarily, and definitely don't see themselves as any less male because of it.

*Canada uses a different measuring system, but my last test (done just before having my next shot) came back with levels of 11.9 nmol/L, which is on the low end of 'normal', or just under depending upon which values you consider 'normal'.

I guess thats it for me. I spoke to a surgeon who does SRS (Sex Change) surgery about doing my Orchiectomy and Implants. She said she had done M2F mostly and some F2M but with me she would be doing what? m2M I told her and she thought this was great. And this is really how I feel. I don't have a problem with anyone wanting a M2E procedure. Its just not what I'm looking for.

On your levels. I know how it can suck being on the "low but normal" end of the lab tests when the labs are using old 1998 documentation on what is "normal" and acceptable. I had to be the squeeky wheel and did some research that I brought to my Doctor to ask "What about this?" One thing is an average Testosterone vrs Age chart and the other is the AACE guidelines for treating men with Hypogonadism printed in 2002. You should be able to find both with Google but email or PM me where you want it and I'll be MORE then happy to send this. There is a good book called the Testosterone Syndrome which I highly suggest if your trying to get feeling like the "old" you.

I'm going to try to get less uptight about the "E" word some of my best friends are ahh... that word. WOW do I sound like an idiot today....

mrt (imported) wrote: Wed Apr 25, 2007 2:17 pm I guess thats it for me. I spoke to a surgeon who does SRS (Sex Change) surgery about doing my Orchiectomy and Implants. She said she had done M2F mostly and some F2M but with me she would be doing what? m2M I told her and she thought this was great. And this is really how I feel. I don't have a problem with anyone wanting a M2E procedure. Its just not what I'm looking for.

<<snip>>

I'm going to try to get less uptight about the "E" word some of my best friends are ahh... that word. WOW do I sound like an idiot today....

I hope you don’t mind, but I’m going to spring your m2M coinage on a flock of sex researchers on Thursday evening. It’s certainly real and it needs to be considered in the spectrum of research and medical intervention.

While you’ve made it clear from the very beginning here that you were not interested in an M2E transition, I hope that you’ve found the kind of help (and sympathetic ear) here that has been helpful. I know that you have helped many others through your kindness and understanding.

You are a valued member of the group. Thank you for your many contributions. I hope to see many more in the future.

JesusA (imported) wrote: Wed Apr 25, 2007 7:10 pm I hope you don’t mind, but I’m going to spring your m2M coinage on a flock of sex researchers on Thursday evening. It’s certainly real and it needs to be considered in the spectrum of research and medical intervention.

While you’ve made it clear from the very beginning here that you were not interested in an M2E transition, I hope that you’ve found the kind of help (and sympathetic ear) here that has been helpful. I know that you have helped many others through your kindness and understanding.

You are a valued member of the group. Thank you for your many contributions. I hope to see many more in the future.

Thanks Jesus! I know that my slant is not the same as everyone elses and I really (honest) don't intend to offend those that I'm not in tune with. I've learned a lot about gender issues (for example) that people have and I've come to have a greater appreciation for those folks. As one example.

I started along this path rather unwilling. My MD listened to my problems and was very matter of fact that "fixing" my broken testicles was not in the cards. That since they were broken and shrinking - cosmetic replacements might be worth considering. The logic took a long time for me to wrap my head around. I felt that I was loosing my "manhood" but... Of course my manhood was shrinking and non functional. So what was I really loosing? Getting to the point of going back and saying I was now interesting in talking about this and moving forward was full of embaressment. This forum let me ask lots of questions (Many dumb but...) but it helped to speak to men about the pain of surgery, how they felt afterwards and most important the men I spoke to that were using HRT after the bilateral.

Jesus I applaud what you trying to do. Getting more mainstream doctors up to speed on this is a worthy cause. I think all the screwing around and time spent trying to get this taken care of has made me a bit of a zealot. I have greater appreciation for people like Dr Bowers in Colorado, Dr Alter in California and New York City (and others) who are open to helping men in a straightforward way.

I should probably ass that m2M defines part of my problem. Its probably was what made me first consider orchiectomy and implants as an option.

Chronic pain and the idea (from the last Surgeon I spoke to) that urologists are all trained to NEVER do an Orchiectomy to solve pain issues because of possible law suits needs to be looked into and solved. From a large amount of the medical literature that I've read it is a very valid final step to solving chronic testicular pain. For what its worth the surgeon I'm working with read over what I've collected, noted the names of the writers and the outcomes and did a 180 on his NO, NEVER, WE DON'T DO THIS policy. Which I think is progress.

Good luck with your talk! Tell us how it goes.