Speaking as an mtf transwoman I can say categorically that if I had had the opportunity as a child or young teenager of taking male hormone blockers or getting castrated prior to full srs it would have made my life a great deal better.

I didn't get so excessively androgenised that I wasn't able to transition, but it didn't help!

For me, testosterone was a poisonous mutogen, ghastly stuff yuk!

If enlightened medical practitioners can allow young gender dysphorics to take some measures that prevent permanent androgen mutation then good for them, they will prevent a great deal of suffering.

My fear with this topic is this...i really doubt that many know at such an early age that this is really what they want. Aesthetically, yes, i can see how someone who followed through on transition would wish for the benefits of never having had the male traits puberty will bring. That said, i think many many more would wind up regretting the change...not because the change is inherently bad. Hell, i wouldn't be here if i thought that, but because those that young often don't really know what they want.

Obviously I can't speak for anyone else, but for myself I knew what I wanted from as early an age as five, I wanted to be a girl and hated those boy bits. But getting anything done about it and all the social attitudes etc meant that it took until adulthood to do anything about it

postoplezzie

I am almost fifty years old and can still sing like the cartoon chipmunks or that "I'm so lonely" song. A little before last Christmas, I had fun singing carols along with the radio all by myself with no one around to tease me. I did keep up with Celine Dion, believe it or not. But most people wouldn't be able to tell by my actual talking voice that I could sing so high. Most people identify me as a college age male and would never know that I had semi-dysfuntional balls and now have none. Actually my speaking voice seems close to sounding like that of one of those female senators from Maine (I forget which one) but I don't I don't don't bother with using the feminine inflections which differentiates me from the women. I guess what I'm saying is that there are other ways to get around as a male without really having the balls to do so. I know because I had to.

emasculateme (imported) wrote: Thu Apr 24, 2008 2:33 pm My fear with this topic is this...I really doubt that many know at such an early age that this is really what they want. Aesthetically, yes, I can see how someone who followed through on transition would wish for the benefits of never having had the male traits puberty will bring. That said, I think many many more would wind up regretting the change...not because the change is inherently bad. Hell,

I wouldn't be here if I

emasculateme (imported) wrote: Thu Apr 24, 2008 2:33 pm thought that, but because those that young often don't really know what they want.

"I really doubt that many know at such an early age that this is really what they want.

"

No, the reverse for the members here. No one that is going to remain as they were born as and knew and feel comfortable as they are, give any thought at all to the thought of something different for themselves.

The first time you pick up your first your first crayon, did you spend time deciding which hand to use? Or did you just pick it up? For me, it always ended up in my left hand.. It wasn't a decision, it was automatic...

I think it is an appropriate analogy. Heterosexual children (BtM[en], GtW) never "decide;" the question was never there.

It is us that finally see the question. The answer was already there, waiting for us to find it.

-------------------------------------------

Again "I

emasculateme (imported) wrote: Thu Apr 24, 2008 2:33 pm really doubt that many know at such an early age that this is really what they want.

"

I did then. I do still, but I can't now. Earlier posts of mine explain why. I get a very distinct impression that most MtE boys (at that age, it is really BtE) (and those now men) know at least a few years before puberty, just as MtF boys and FtM girls do. Just as gays and lesbians know that their "role," as defined by a broad society, is upside-down for them, so do MtF, FtM, and BtE..

I have noticed in the discourse here that there is a consensus that blockers should be provided to pre-pubertal boys (MtF) and girls (FtM) until they are older, so they can make a more informed decision. Certainly if MtF and FtM chidren are now prescribed blockers, then they should be for BtE. The MtF and FtM get psychological reviews, so "should" BtE boys.

Unlike MtF boys, and FtM girls, MtE boys are unchanged psysically; the big biological change is at the start of puberty, so I would, however, allow younger BtE boys (age ?),

DonK1954 (imported) wrote: Thu Apr 24, 2008 4:32 am to have their testicles removed with their parents' consent

(and a psych evaluation testifying so

DonK1954 (imported) wrote: Thu Apr 24, 2008 4:32 am that they were fully aware of the consequences?

the consequences are far less "invasive". ). Age? God, who knows? I don't. Tim did. Could he answer for another boy? No, nor would he try.

I was certain by Tanner, Stage 2, that I never did want to be an adult, i wanted to remain a boy, no more, no less; and to the Eunuchs that I know of, they still consider Male in all respects. That means boys'/men's sports, boy/men's restrooms and showers, etc...

What they don't see themselves as a third sex, or a middle sex, just "boys;" they think of themselves as just as masculine as they were back when they born. For some of you, you may consider that you are between the Masculine and Feminine "end-points," and so you are. You "decide" within yourself where you fit. Self-identification belongs to that person alone.

Any boy that has come to know himself as boy, that does not want manhood, he is pretty correct. Mots boys can't wait to be men, can't wait to show off chest hair and the like.

(I think though that Holland might have found the right age, 14, but without blockers, that can be maddeningly too late.)

Wisdom does not come with age, it comes as it does. Age? God, who knows? I don't. Tim did. Tim already has shown how much wisdom he has. Much more than I have at my age. (It's not polite to ask.)

Okay, age is still a very hot topic here, and valid. think on this: How many members here knew that were MtF, MtE, or FtM, and were able to follow through: 1.) Knew what they were before puberty, 2.) Satisfied or unsatisfied with the outcome, why?, 3.) ever had any doubt since you came to the understanding of yourself in that respect.

One member here went through the complete transition, found both wrong, is now a eunuch and has found peace.

How is it that I answer more questions than were ever posed ?

YC

Quick follow-up on an earlier comment I made: I mention "should" regarding evaluation for BtE, because for the BtE, he is not going from masculine to feminine and his body is not being radically transformed sexually by several operations, some that may only be performed once body height is attained. The on-coming masculine adulthood is doing the transforming for a BtE. Otherwise, little evaluation is required, a boy know already what it is to be a boy. Very different for BtG, GtB, MtF and FtM.

YC

YC -

I agree with you that the BtE or MtE transition is less drastic than, e.g., MtF or FtM, since the only really irreversible change is the loss of ability to make sperm. Puberty can always be induced later if desired through administration of hormones. Yes, the boy will look different than other men, because of longer long bones in relation to body size, but that's relatively minor. And these days with computer aging of children's photos it should be possible to create an approximation of how the boy will look as an older eunuch to let him decide if that's an acceptable appearance.

I also agree that for boys who have thoughts of castration it's not just a casual "gee, wouldn't that be cool" kind of thing. The vast majority of boys can't wait to get body hair and large penises and become men. Those of us who want to become eunuchs really want to stay boys, and know it from fairly young ages. As I said, I began thinking about it when I was 8 or so, and knew for certain I wanted to be neutered when I was 12 and still a Tanner 1 (I didn't start growing pubic hair and my testicles didn't start growing until sometime after my 13th birthday).

I would be perfectly accepting of castration at ages as young as 10-12 with parental consent, and a psych evaluation meant basically to determine that the boy fully understands that he will never be able to father children, that his physical appearance will be different as a result of castration, and that there is some likelihood that he won't have the ability to have erections. I would have been overjoyed had the opportunity been open to me at that age. I can't ever remember wanting to be a father, erections were just kind of an annoyance to me at that age (I didn't start masturbating until I was 14 or 15), and the appearance changes would have been just part of the deal.

When I say wanting to be a eunuch is part of the continuum of transgenderism, I don't mean to imply that we eunuchs form a kind of third sex. I still consider myself a guy, even though I've had two of the bits that determine maleness removed. I think had I been castrated before puberty I would feel the same way. I suppose I'm using the term transgendered to mean anyone who doesn't want to fit into the category usually thought of as male (penis, testicles, more or less hairy body, wears pants, etc.).

Anyway, I'm glad to continue this conversation.

DonK1954 (imported) wrote: Fri Apr 25, 2008 8:26 am YC -

I agree with you that the BtE or MtE transition is less drastic than, e.g., MtF or FtM, since the only really irreversible change is the loss of ability to make sperm.

There is one other irreversible change that occurs if puberty is allowed to progress that needs to considered, That is the change in voice. Again, with HRT, that will occur as part of the development process. If androgen blokers are used, then will occur as the other traits of maturity porgress.

I have come to belief that blockers should be the best course until a boy reaches a determative age, since HRT becomes a life-long regimen, since HRT is what is used to reverse the changes of medical castration.

YC -

DonK1954 (imported) wrote: Fri Apr 25, 2008 8:26 am And these days with computer aging of children's photos it should be possible to create an approximation of how the boy will look as an older eunuch to let him decide if that's an acceptable appearance.

Yes, be careful with that though. Puberty causes many physical changes to the body that cause many potential effects that parallel the effects of menopause in women if the castration is performed after T S 2 is well along or during TS 3 and after.

Without the occurrence of puberty, there is nothing reverse. Since the maturation of the body that occurs during the stages, nothing reverts: no male menopause; no loss of muscle mass, no drop in metabolism, no shift of fat from waist to hip, no development of breasts. Adults with Klienfelter's Syndrome are the best example of adults that never entered puberty.

Klientfelter's is caused by the lack of increase in testosterone from the pituitary gland that "wakes-ups" the testes. A short regime of HRT "wake-up" the testes, the production of testosterone then continues naturally.

To computer render something very different from that would present a very inaccurate portrayal of the results that pre-pubertal castration causes.

YC

YankeeClipper (imported) wrote: Fri Apr 25, 2008 6:27 pm Yes, be careful with that though. Puberty causes many physical changes to the body that cause many potential effects that parallel the effects of menopause in women if the castration is performed after T S 2 is well along or during TS 3 and after.

Without the occurrence of puberty, there is nothing reverse. Since the maturation of the body that occurs during the stages, nothing reverts: no male menopause; no loss of muscle mass, no drop in metabolism, no shift of fat from waist to hip, no development of breasts. Adults with Klienfelter's Syndrome are the best example of adults that never entered puberty.

YC

As far as muscle mass gain before puberty, look at how many boys (pre-pubertal) do weight lifting, play little league baseball, Pop Warmer football, junior league soccur; its just takes longer to develop mass, but they can continue at the same rate as in any other boy.

To avoid weight gain, careful dieting will prevent that. Keep in mind that metabolism does go not go up if puberty never occurs. For me, my fat gain actually started during puberty. Before puberty, I could ride my bike for considerable distances. As I moved into High School, the increase in time for studies, time was reduced athletic activities, with the resulting weight (fat) gain.

YC

YankeeClipper (imported) wrote: Fri Apr 25, 2008 6:27 pm There is one other irreversible change that occurs if puberty is allowed to progress that needs to considered, That is the change in voice. Again, with HRT, that will occur as part of the development process. If androgen blokers are used, then will occur as the other traits of maturity porgress.

I have come to belief that blockers should be the best course until a boy reaches a determative age, since HRT becomes a life-long regimen, since HRT is what is used to reverse the changes of medical castration.

Without the occurrence of puberty, there is nothing reverse. Since the maturation of the body that occurs during the stages, nothing reverts: no male menopause; no loss of muscle mass, no drop in metabolism, no shift of fat from waist to hip, no development of breasts.

I agree with you that prevention of puberty in those for whom it would be distressing should be the highest priority. This would mean administration of blockers until they reach an age where they're deemed capable of consenting to castration on their own. I think boys of 14 or 15 should be able to make that decision without outside interference; unfortunately, however, in the real world the age of consent for testicle removal is unlikely ever to be below 18. Equally unfortunately, administration of blockers is unlikely ever to be allowed without parental consent, so parents will

YankeeClipper (imported) wrote: Fri Apr 25, 2008 6:41 pm be able to keep some boys from obtaining the relief they

need.

For me, my fat gain actually started during puberty.

Funny how that works. I was a fat boy before puberty (BMI in the top 3-5% of boys for my age), but started slimming down probably about the time I reached Tanner 3 (14 or so), and reached an average BMI by age 18 or 19.