To Blaise and others...thanks for your comments, but I'm not interested in debating this endlessly. Polemical or not, controversial or not, the works I cited were for beginners, and a full bibliography for the interested scholar can be easily found, no need to retype one here. The case is stated in toto, and rather succinctly, I think... and it is this (sigh!)... no evidence exists

Kortpeel (imported) wrote: Tue Jun 24, 2008 11:35 am that any such person as Jesus Christ ever existed. The

canonical gospels (which are internally inconsistent and written by unknown authors) appear too late to be eyewitness accounts, nonbiblical accounts are either forged or (to use the polite Catholic word) "interpolated" and are mostly useless, and there are no nonbiblical, contemporary accounts of the man, nor of any other characters mentioned in the story...Joseph, Mary, Judas, etc. And all the things, miracles, and characteristics attributed to Jesus were also attributed to previous savior-gods, from Mithras to Herecles, from Horus to Apollo...you catch my meaning.

It is not up to me (nor it is possible) to "prove a negative" that Jesus did not exist. But it is up to Xians who make the claim that Jesus existed to prove their position. And after 2000 years, the proof is simply not there.

Not trying to be insulting here, but as I said before, I consider my task here complete. Now if someone wants to take on the monumental task of proving the existence of Jesus, go right ahead. Example: polemical author Lee Strobel tried in several volumes and failed miserably, according to Doherty and others. And so it goes... Authors and apologists and theologians have been beating the same dead horse for centuries, but it still does not get up and walk. Appeals to authority, to faith, to all sorts of manipulation and distortion of the data, relying on forged documents... please.

Like I said earlier, I grew up in the Southern Baptist tradition, was "washed in the blood" from an early age, and have heard it all. So yes, my job here is done, I leave it in your capable hands. But if just one of you here read any of the books I recommended and find freedom from Xianity (and Islam is even worse and more psychotic than Xianity) then I will consider my time and efforts here successful.

Peace out.

Thanks Plix, nice job.

Randy, your preaching to the wrong group, we all have read the bible and I would bet know it better then you.

To Sag my friend, In my long life I have met I believe one true Christian, we may not agree but I respect your beliefs before all others.

A-1, AMEN

River

Yep time to leave,

this new article is relevant to this topic:

Tablet Ignites Debate on Messiah and Resurrection

by ETHAN BRONNER

Published: July 6, 2008

JERUSALEM — A three-foot-tall tablet with 87 lines of Hebrew that scholars believe dates from the decades just before the birth of Jesus is causing a quiet stir in biblical and archaeological circles, especially because it may speak of a messiah who will rise from the dead after three days.

continuted here.. http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/06/world ... yt&emc=rss

plix (imported) wrote: Tue Jul 01, 2008 8:41 pm I have read "The Jesus Mysteries." It is an interesting book. There are many other stories out there very similar to Christ's story that predate the Christ story. Most Christians are not aware of these stories. Those who are usually prefer not to acknowledge them. I have not heard any good explanations from anyone as to why these other stories exist if Christ's story is the only true one. All I have heard are painfully unconvincing explanations, such as that Satan planted the other stories before Christ in order to confuse people.

Thanks Plix, nice job.

i was trying this weekend to conjure up a little something that refutiaties the claims that Christianity was borrowed from pagan myths but there are just so many gods, so many strories out there. if i posted what i wrote this weekend i wouldnt be speaking to anyone specifically. if plix or river or anyone else could give me a certain BC pagan diety and the apparent similarities to Jesus Christ that would make for better conversation.

randy (imported) wrote: Sun Jul 06, 2008 7:47 pm this new article is relevant to this topic:

Tablet Ignites Debate on Messiah and Resurrection

by ETHAN BRONNER

Published: July 6, 2008

JERUSALEM — A three-foot-tall tablet with 87 lines of Hebrew that scholars believe dates from the decades just before the birth of Jesus is causing a quiet stir in biblical and archaeological circles, especially because it may speak of a messiah who will rise from the dead after three days.

continuted here.. http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/06/world ... yt&emc=rss

i was trying this weekend to conjure up a little something that refutiaties the claims that Christianity was borrowed from pagan myths but there are just so many gods, so many strories out there. if i posted what i wrote this weekend i wouldnt be speaking to anyone specifically. if plix or river or anyone else could give me a certain BC pagan diety and the apparent similarities to Jesus Christ that would make for better conversation.

There are many major and lesser god and goddesses to chose from, and depending on what part of the world you are in the names can change and still be reffering to the same God.

A Small Dictionary of Pagan Gods & Goddesses (http://www.unc.edu/%7Ereddeer/index/god_dess_es.html)

I started taking notes, more or less at random, about the gods and gradually accumulated information about some 330 pagan gods and goddessess. ...

www.unc.edu/~reddeer/index/god_dess_es.html

There are many more listings on the net. look under pagan gods.

River

It seems archeology has something to add about the origins of Christianity -

randy (imported) wrote: Sun Jul 06, 2008 7:47 pm http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/06/world ... stone.html?

_r=1&hp&oref=slogin

I do have to say, and this is just me, that it does not really matter to me whether Jesus was a real person or a fiction thought up later on.

I don't consider myself a Christian, but find that many of Christ's supposed teachings are good, honest values for a person to live by. I'm not talking about the Old Testament, or the hate that a portion of Christians are spewing forth, but some of the basics that are embraced by a number of other religions as well.

I went to public school all my life, however for the first two years I attended a little one-room schoolhouse near my home. Each morning we started the day by singing the national anthem, reciting the Lord's Prayer, and one more thing which has stuck with me throughout my life. I can still hear it, just as we said it every day: "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. That means, don't to anything to anybody else that you wouldn't want them to do to you." I may not be Christian, but that is one truth I have tried to follow my entire life. Christian or not, the world would be a much better place if more people followed that one simple guideline.

How did whomemevers write the Gospels, know Judas received 30 silver pieces? I don't think he was so proud he went bragging to people about it, and then he hung himself. I don't see why the Pharisees would be telling it to historians or whomever...so where did the price come from who told the future scribes what Judas received?

I've heard it was made 30 to match up with an Old Testament prediction, but don't know for sure....?

Batman

randy (imported) wrote: Sun Jul 06, 2008 7:47 pm this new article is relevant to this topic:

Tablet Ignites Debate on Messiah and Resurrection

by ETHAN BRONNER

Published: July 6, 2008

JERUSALEM — A three-foot-tall tablet with 87 lines of Hebrew that scholars believe dates from the decades just before the birth of Jesus is causing a quiet stir in biblical and archaeological circles, especially because it may speak of a messiah who will rise from the dead after three days.

continuted here.. http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/06/world ... yt&emc=rss

i was trying this weekend to conjure up a little something that refutiaties the claims that Christianity was borrowed from pagan myths but there are just so many gods, so many strories out there. if i posted what i wrote this weekend i wouldnt be speaking to anyone specifically. if plix or river or anyone else could give me a certain BC pagan diety and the apparent similarities to Jesus Christ that would make for better conversation.

Don't know about the 87 lines of HEBREW, but I did 87 lines of COLUMBIAN once... I ALMOST IGNITED

(WHEW! I'll never do that again....:-\ )

I did a couple of lines of Hebrew once...it was great! --FLO--

bobov (imported) wrote: Sun Jul 06, 2008 11:50 pm It seems archeology has something to add about the origins of Christianity -

randy (imported) wrote: Sun Jul 06, 2008 7:47 pm http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/06/world ... stone.html?

_r=1&hp&oref=slogin

As the story indicates (assuming that the artifact is real and that its dating is correct, all yet to be validated), the motif of being dead and buried for 3 days, then being resurrected and being the savior of mankind was already established in the Judean mythology decades before the purported time of Jesus. Now some folks will just say, "See, it's more divine prophecy!!" However, if one has a realistic and scientific approach to life, there is no room for prophecy....or miracles, or coming back from the dead, or walking on water, or...well, you get my drift. A more likely explanation is that the dead-for-three-days motif was alive and well in pre-Christian mythology, and it was just adopted and enfolded into Christianity as it developed, along with a lot of other motifs extant in the various religions at the time. Judea was virtually awash in religions of every stripe you can imagine, and there were more things to choose from than a Chinese menu...take a little from column A, a little from column B, mix in some miracles (all of which were attributed to previous gods, by the way), add a virgin birth (also said of Mithras, Herecles, Apollo, and others), and voila! SHAZAM! ...you have a new religion.

If I were more cynical than I am (and God knows I'm pretty cynical), I would start up my own religion and fleece lots of people out of tons of cash, and get wide-eyed young ladies to surrender their virginity to me, but even I am not that cynical. Just sayin'....ya know.