A-1 (imported) wrote: Sun Dec 02, 2012 7:50 pm Has anybody wrote one named "MOAN" yet? I figured that it might just appear here first... you know, ...



...one could die of New Moan Ya...

HOWL was the opening literature of the "Beat" poets and the Beatnik generation.

It speaks of and to that era.

What about

Meditations in an Emergency by Frank O'Hara. First published in 1957.

Made famous in Mad Men

http://www.amazon.com/Meditations-Emerg ... 0802134521

I can't follow that either.

Ginsberg appeared on my college campus on two different occasions. I never felt a big whoop of or around him.

Neither O'Hara nor Ginsberg can write poems that rhyme.

Moi

moi621 (imported) wrote: Sun Dec 02, 2012 10:45 pm What about

Meditations in an Emergency by Frank O'Hara. First published in 1957.

Made famous in Mad Men

http://www.amazon.com/Meditations-Emerg ... 0802134521

I can't follow that either.

Ginsberg appeared on my college campus on two different occasions. I never felt a big whoop of or around him.

Neither O'Hara nor Ginsberg can write poems that rhyme.

Moi

The measure is English heroic verse, without rime, as that of Homer in Greek or Virgil in Latin; rime being no necessary adjunct or true ornament of poem or good verse, in longer works especially, being the invention of a barbarous age, to set of wretched matter and lame metre ... a thing of itself, to all judicious ears, trivial and of no true musical delight ... John Milton

gareth19 (imported) wrote: Sun Dec 02, 2012 11:55 pm The measure is English heroic verse, without rime, as that of Homer in Greek or Virgil in Latin; rime being no necessary adjunct or true ornament of poem or good verse, in longer works especially, being the invention of a barbarous age, to set of wretched matter and lame metre ... a thing of itself, to all judicious ears, trivial and of no true musical delight ... John Milton

Then what is a poem. And a sonnet for that question.

Moi

Iambic, therefore I think

From the dictionary, a definition as good as any - "A piece of writing that partakes of the nature of both speech and song, and that is usually rhythmical and metaphorical."

...Once upon an afternoon dreary...

(...with apologies to Edgar Allen Poe...)

NEVERMORE!

moi621 (imported) wrote: Mon Dec 03, 2012 12:01 am Then what is a poem. And a sonnet for that question.

Moi

Iambic, therefore I think

You are confusing verse with poetry and both with poems, by defining the latter entirely by formal structures, some of which (like rime) are widely recognized as superficial and non-essential. C.S. Lewis, commenting on the poet Lawmon, whose Middle English work the Brut is, at over 16,000 lines, the longest poem in the English language, says that Lawmon was incapable of writing a poem but occasionally able to write poetry. What Lewis means is that Lawmon's retelling of Geoffrey of Monmouth's Historia Regum Britanniae is shapeless and chaotic, but that there are passages, such as when Arthur looks out over the carnage of battle and compares the fallen knights in the river to steely fishes with swords and then compares the scales of the metaphorical fishes to the shields of knights and their fins to spears that are of great beauty and inventiveness.

[Hū ligeð in þan stæme stelene fishes

mid sweorde bigeorede heore sund is awemmed

heore scalen wleoteð swulc goldfa3e sceldes

þer fleoteð heore spiten swulc hit speren weoren.

The fourteen-line sonnet of Shakespeare is only one of several forms which the sonnet can take. The original meaning was of a short song; Donne's Holy Sonnets have neither a fixed number of lines nor regular stanzas, though Donne recognizes the stanza as a sub-unit in constructing the sonnet; he puns of the Italian meaning of stanza, room. I am by no means a champion of vers libre, and if you want a good formalist introduction to poetry and poems, Timothy Steele's All the Fun's in How You Say a Thing is quite good. Steele's published volumes of verse Sapphics against Anger, The Color Wheel, and Towards the Winter Solstice are also worth reading.

Steele's description of an approaching storm at the beach:

Breeze sent a wrinkling darkness

Across the bay. I knelt

Beneath an upturned boat

And, moment by moment, felt

The sand at my feet grow colder,

The damp air chill and spread.

Then the first raindrops sounded

On the hull above my head.

I wonder

Why isn't Benjamin Cardoza given credit as the first Latino Supreme Court justice.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benjamin_N._Cardozo

Suggestions.

Moi

Wondering again.

Gareth, thank you for that academic essay on poetry, sonnets and such

As I thanked you in private, it is too upper division for me.

Could we start with a rhyme and move on to a beat / pentameter.

Or just small bites. I really do appreciate your effort but, honestly cannot grasp it.

Everyone, if not anyone , welcome.

Possibly because Cardozo's family was Jewish and from maybe. possibly, "I wish it were so" and "grandpa said it, so I believe him" Portugal by way of England?

BTW - none of those reasons are wrong but they aren't conclusive enough to call Cardozo "hispanic" or "latino" ... Not that they aren't worthy of having that distinction.

From that wikipedia entry (my emphasis):

Cardozo was born in New York City, the son of Rebecca Washington (née Nathan) and Albert Jacob Cardozo.[2] Both Cardozo's maternal grandparents, Sara Seixas and Isaac Mendes Seixas Nathan, and his paternal grandparents, Ellen Hart and Michael H. Cardozo, were Sephardi Jews of the Portuguese Jewish community affiliated with Manhattan's Congregation Shearith Israel; their families emigrated from England before the American Revolution, and were descended from Jews who left the Iberian Peninsula for Holland during the Inquisition.[2] Cardozo family tradition held that their ancestors were Marranos from Portugal,[2] although Cardozo's ancestry has not been firmly traced to Portugal.[3] "Cardozo" (archaic spelling of Cardoso), "Seixas" and "Mendes" are common Portuguese surnames.

Yeshiva University's law school is named after Cardozo. To answer Moi's question, a person can have only one ethnic identity in the public's eye, and Cardozo's is Jewish. The Jewish community takes great pride in him. If Cardozo's ancestors left Portugal during the Inquisition, which started in 1480, it was a long time ago. Their centuries-long residence in England and America made them effectively upper-class white Anglo-Saxon Jews. Even so, Cardozo was abominated by some of his colleagues on the Supreme Court because he was Jewish. They refused to speak with him for his entire tenure.